Technical Panda Cross roadside breakdown story

[Dieselfan]

Hello there!

Just for completeness of the injector saga a year ago, (https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/320248-diesel-injector-failure-twice-few-months.html) our Panda Cross broke down next to the road last Sunday evening. The car had its regular 20 000 km service only one week ago (160 000 km).

We drove along, ten minutes from home, with no warning, the engine just "switched off". Just like that. I tried to start it (by using the clutch and momentum) - nothing. We coasted to a dead stop, trying a few times to start it. It turns over, doesn't start at all! My first thought was some sort of electronics failure, but the frustrating thing about modern engines is that I could not even think what the problem could be (or see).

So the Panda was taken to our local Fiat garage on a low-bed truck. The next day, after investigation, I was told the reason for the breakdown was...wait...WAIT FOR IT...

ANOTHER DIESEL INJECTOR FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!

For anybody reading my history of problems with diesel injectors, you will find this absolutely astonishing. 4 brand new injectors were only replaced a YEAR ago, so luckily it was under guarantee, so I do not have to pay the CHF 700 fee for a replacement (£1050 for ONE). (Yes, Switzerland prices).

The one thing that I find very strange is that the car did not want to start AT ALL, even though only a single injector failed. The previous failures were signaled by a rough idle for a couple of days - in this case - NO warning. What I know of diesel engines is that they don't just die on you if an injector fails.

So I don't know what the heck is wrong with my 1.3 MJ, but I have to say, despite my love for this car, the reliability record is starting to worry me a great deal (and I have owned an old Defender and Lotus before!).

Any ideas? No - the quality of diesel here in Switzerland is top class, so it isn't that.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,
sounds like you've been doubly unlucky !!,

but I suspect this has been a separate incident / failing,

maybe the electrical driving side of the injector had failed ( maybe shorted..?) and that has set-off a fuel-cut from the ECU..( just a hunch),

whereas before you had a Mechanical fault that was restricting flow within each injector..,


I'm no expert .. but as you say , it's a whole different "feel" to this failure,

charlie

 

[Dieselfan]

I think your hunch is probably right. The little technical French I understood that the explanation was vaguely similar to what you wrote here.

At the time the warning message briefly on the digital display said "FIRE".
I did not smell or detect anything in the engine compartment.

Still - how on earth does that sort of thing "just happen"?

 

[Goudrons]

I've been a diesel fan for many years, way back when they were unpopular, slow and dirty (and more often than not, French)

But lately I'd gone right off them, particularly after my last one, a Jag X Type diesel with Ford's TDCi engine and the Delphi common rail system and in March when a new car was needed I wouldn't entertain another diesel and have gone back to petrol.
Common rails, DPF's and EGR's are recipes for expensive disasters.

Two sets of injectors? Count yourself lucky, Ford/Delphi injectors are set to loose their calibration codes after a certain amount of injections (around 80k miles) so you have to take it back, get the injectors retested and reprogrammed (or more likely binned), but if they last that long in the first place, you're laughing as most die long before that.
They costs are eye watering £250 a piece before programming to the PCM, even for Delphi's re manufactured ones, in 6 years mine ate on average, one a year.

My old pump timed van on the other hand has been to the moon and back on it's original pump and injectors, the last 60k on veg oil (without preheating it).
It's always tested low on it's smoke test and never refused to start.
Yes, it's slow and noisy, but it's simple and tough and there's nothing I can replace it with!!

BTW, one injector failure can return all it's fuel back to the pump/tank, so the pump can't generate enough rail pressure due to too much leaking back, this lowering the rail pressure is enough to cause the PCM to stop firing the other three as it detects a low rail pressure.

 

[Dieselfan]

...aaaand after a drive to Bern and into the mountains (round-trip about 400 kms), the engine sounds like it is running on 3 cylinders again. So I am taking it back AGAIN on Monday.


Is there somebody here who would like to take a wild, crazy guess what the problem is going to turn out to be? :doh::bang:

 

[jrkitching]

I've been a diesel fan for many years, way back when they were unpopular, slow and dirty

But lately I'd gone right off them

:yeahthat:

I can't see how any sane and rational analysis can fail to show that the economics of modern small car ownership in the UK are now hugely weighted in favour of a petrol engine.

Modern common rail DPF fitted diesels are a huge and largely uncontrollable liability once they're out of warranty.

 

[Dieselfan]

That's a bit worrying...

Do you have some data one can access to see this trend? I am not asking this from a skeptical / disbelieving point of view, but would like to be informed about this as I am experiencing something like this right now, in a sense.

Jrkitching, what do you think is the reason for this? Inherent design-flaws?

 

[Dieselfan]

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=modern+diesel+problems

 

[AB100]

:yeahthat:

I can't see how any sane and rational analysis can fail to show that the economics of modern small car ownership in the UK are now hugely weighted in favour of a petrol engine.

Modern common rail DPF fitted diesels are a huge and largely uncontrollable liability once they're out of warranty.

There's a distinct worry for me with not-new-in-warranty diesels. And as I do not do intergalactic mileage it's not worth the extra mpg.


That said, I think dieselfan should do two things:


1. Change his name


2. Change the thread title to "Panda Cross, owner bloody furious"


Bad luck old chap. Let's hope it gets resolved.

 

[Wee Smurf]

Although I love my Multijet Panda and I'm currently getting 65 mpg, I don't think my next car will be another diesel. The timing chain incident with mine was enough to put me off getting another along with the newer DPF which looks like it will be an extra high expense if it goes. I have priced up the new Panda but I didn't even consider pricing up the diesel engine at all.

The diesel engine is a good wee engine but much too costly when it goes wrong

I hope that they can get to the bottom of what is causing your failure rather than just replacing the broken bits for them to fail again as whatever has been causing them to fail hasn't been addressed.

 

[jrkitching]

Bad luck old chap. Let's hope it gets resolved.

I'll second that.

Do you have some data one can access to see this trend? I am not asking this from a skeptical / disbelieving point of view, but would like to be informed about this as I am experiencing something like this right now, in a sense.

A quick search of the internet will throw up literally scores of posts on DPF problems alone. The key features all of these posts have in common, regardless of marque or initial price of car, are these:

1. Yes, it is by no means unusual for a DPF to require replacement after 70000-80000 miles

2. No, it's not covered by any kind of warranty

and

3. Yes, a replacement really does cost that much.

Now search the internet for injector failure and you'll find a depressingly similar story.

So I think it's reasonable to budget somewhere in the order of £2500-£4000 on unscheduled engine repairs in the first 100,000 miles. Add to that the extra initial cost of a diesel engine and you're getting close to the discounted price of a new base model petrol Panda. I get 55mpg+ out of mine; there are plenty of small diesels that don't do much better than that, especially when you factor in the extra cost of diesel fuel.

 

[udtrev]

I hope your issue gets fixed soon,

I'll not complain about my £1,400 bill for one of the turbos on the S Type now, guess what wasn't covered on the warranty :bang:

Fingers crossed they find the bloody gremlin.

Trev

 

[Goudrons]

Common rail diesel pumps generate massive rail pressure, so that little bar across the front of the engine is reported to carry around 2000 bar, if not more these days.
First problem of a common rail is to generate enough rail pressure in the first place, even before it's fired up, often needing around 300-400 bar off the starter motor alone, it needs to suck (or have pumped from the tank) fuel fast enough, then compress it into a small space.

A pump can fail in two areas, low (input side) and high pressure sides (output side), but more often than not they can look like they've failed.
A true failure can produce metal fragments as the pump internals breaks up and wipe the injectors out, but more often something else effects the pressure (excess fuel return back from the rail, a blocked filter or a leak) and the pump looks suspect, it's still working, but something else is effecting pressure.

The injection process is far more complicated than it used to be too.
Behind the modern injector is the stated rail pressure and the engine ECU will determine when and how much to inject into the engine, the rest of the fuel in the rail/pipes returns to the pump/filter/tank (depending of fuel temp and model)
The injection is no longer one mechanically pulsed squirt, but often two of different durations and width (a pre injection short skinny one and a longer fat squirt) fired electronically.

So the injector isn't just a fine nozzle with fuel pulsed through it anymore, but a complicated actuator fired by the ECU, very rapidly, working under massive pressure and needing ultra fine tolerances.
The tolerances, electronics and mechanicals of an injector can be effected by all sorts of things, they wear (fuel passing through), dirty or comtaminated fuel, plain old component failure or a failure of the signal to fire it (either internally or from the ECU/an engine sensor).

When an injector does go, they most likely start to return more fuel back to the pump/filter/tank, this lowers the rail pressure as the pump cannot keep up, it's like cutting the end of a balloon off and trying to blow it up.
As it's not running cleaning, you can't produce enough engine speed to overcome and so on.

Now this is one of the reasons I've gone off common rails.
It's cheaper and easier to produce an injector with "ball park" tolerances rather than manufacture each the same. So the cars ECU needs programming with that injectors characteristics, so it runs properly.
The cost of new genuine injectors has lead to the increase in remanufacture, taking the old one out, rebuilding it, testing it's charateristics, generating a new code to match those, fitting it and reprogamming the cars ECU (basically another industry)

The push for cheaper and cheaper parts has also lead to a whole new area of pattern parts production (and counterfeiting).
So quite often, a dealer or mechanic won't fit a genuine boxed "Fiat" injector, but will farm this work out to the local Bosch service centre (hopfully) who will fit genuine Bosch parts (hopefully), then test it and generate a need calibration code (again, hopefully).

I say hopefully, as there is a growning trend for someone with a spanner to open one up, fit pattern or couterfeit parts, screw it back together and fit in hope, yet charge you full price (you can find vids of these people on Youtube)

So for one reason or another, it's not just a case of buying a "new" injector, fitting it and it works, but more "hit and miss". Buy or rebuild one, test it, fit it and alter the car's programming to hopfully make good use of it!

After your repeated failures, I would want a Bosch agent to check it over to make sure something isn't wiping the injectors out (test fuel as well), then test each one, recalibrate them and reprogram the cars ECU.

 

[Dieselfan]

Wow - Goudrons - thank you! I appreciate the explanation and the effort you have taken to type that out. I am genuinely a changed man as far as knowledge of modern diesels are concerned.

We went this morning - and yes - it is a faulty injector.

Your description of the reconditioned injectors is spot-on. That is exactly what we have fitted. BUT - through our official and large Fiat dealership, and on the recommendation of the dealer. It even came with a two-year guarantee. The Swiss are genuinely known for their high standards and ethics, but - as you point out, that could be the weak link in the story.

The Bosch idea is an excellent idea. I will always remember that.

 

[Dieselfan]

The injector was fixed under guarantee. As I left, I told the mechanic: "See you on Monday again".

PS: The garage gave me a new fancy Alfa Romeo Giulietta for the day, the one with the 1.4 petrol turbo engine. My goodness, amazing how technology has changed and improved cars over the last 7 years! Felt and drove like a spaceship. And the power! From a 1.4!

PPS: I see more and more Maseratis turning up at our local Fiat / Alfa - is this a change in policy to service and sell (secondhand) Maseratis too? Interesting...

PPPS: RIP Lancia.

 

[AB100]

The injector was fixed under guarantee. As I left, I told the mechanic: "See you on Monday again".

PS: The garage gave me a new fancy Alfa Romeo Giulietta for the day, the one with the 1.4 petrol turbo engine. My goodness, amazing how technology has changed and improved cars over the last 7 years! Felt and drove like a spaceship. And the power! From a 1.4!

PPS: I see more and more Maseratis turning up at our local Fiat / Alfa - is this a change in policy to service and sell (secondhand) Maseratis too? Interesting...

PPPS: RIP Lancia.

Hope the injector stays ok.


As for Lancia........who knows what FIAT are thinking. I'm sure they'd have more sales over here with the Lancia badge than the Chrysler one.