Technical Panda/500 Selespeed gearbox full strip and service

[DaveMcT]

This is interesting for anyone buying an automatic Panda (sorry) 500. First make sure the clutch is not worn out. They do clobber the clutch.

 

[bugsymike]

Very interesting Dave, but hasn't convinced me to buy one.

 

[DaveMcT]

Personally I would swap the auto box for a normal gearbox. Probably the cheapest option there is.

 

[bugsymike]

Personally I would swap the auto box for a normal gearbox. Probably the cheapest option there is.

More reliable as well.

 

[AnthonyH]

Is it a simple swap? what else is there to do?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Is it a simple swap? what else is there to do?

There must be some more jobs or it would be a regular fix. I might just buy one of these duff selespeed dualogic cars if I can get one at give away and see if I can convert it. It could be a good source of income.

 

[koalar]

Is it a simple swap? what else is there to do?

A lot the wiring and electronics are different

The cranking circuit is completely different

It has an extra safety relay so it can't start without neutral selected

This is via network canbus talking between the dualogic computer and the body computer

ECU and throttle bodies are different

Is it doable

Yes

Swap everything, but seems pointless
Can it be bodged, don't know never tried

Is it doable but just changing the clutch gearbox and selector cables

No

 

[The Panda Nut]

A lot the wiring and electronics are different

The cranking circuit is completely different

It has an extra safety relay so it can't start without neutral selected

This is via network canbus talking between the dualogic computer and the body computer

ECU and throttle bodies are different

Is it doable

Yes

Swap everything, but seems pointless
Can it be bodged, don't know never tried

Is it doable but just changing the clutch gearbox and selector cables

No

End of my silly idea then

 

[koalar]

End of my silly idea then

Not silly

It would have hill hold and esp, it's a projet that will is going to stretch most people's skills set, and in most cases probably beyond and get abandoned

Not as straightforward as it first seems

As well as the electronics/electrics

There's lots of little things like clutch pedal, slave and reservoir,

Dash and so on

Simpler with a donor car but that makes it a pointless exercise


The dialogic is a simple system, it's not complicated to repair, it just the parts aren't cheap and if you require someone to do it for you they are hard to find and generally charge like a heard of elephants

 

[AnthonyH]

I see, thanks for the informative reply. On the surface it seems simple, but the reality is always different. I'll not be giving the swap a try!

I'm sure i could take a dualogic gerabox off and fully repair it. It'd take ages though, and I just don't like automatic or semi automatics to drive, so i don't have much incentive to buy one of these cars cheaply and repair it.

 

[koalar]

I see, thanks for the informative reply. On the surface it seems simple, but the reality is always different. I'll not be giving the swap a try!

I'm sure i could take a dualogic gerabox off and fully repair it. It'd take ages though, and I just don't like automatic or semi automatics to drive, so i don't have much incentive to buy one of these cars cheaply and repair it.

As I see it

9 times out of 10

It's normally the rubber membrane in the accumulator let's go with age

Oil from the hydraulic side leaks into the gas side

Unable to select neutral or dropping out of gear are the most common symptoms, but not to be relied upon for diagnostic purposes

At this point all that is needed is new accumulator just over £100 to pay for a garage to fix

Unfortunately what normally happen is

Someone see the level is at minimum or below and fills it up to the maximum

Shed loads of video on YouTube showing this last time I looked

This is incorrect with the pump primed by opening the door the level should only be at minimum

If the membrane has gone constantly topping up will eventually cause bits of rubber to circulate making matters worse

You can get a good idea of the state of the accumulator by opening the door after the car has been left awhile and count how long the pump primes for then see how many gear changes it does before it kicks in again

I can't remember the exact figure but I posted them in the post 2007 500 section, on a thread about not cranking if left in gear over night

A better way would be to remove the accumulator and weight it, unfortunately the dialogic keeps evolving with different size accumulators and I don't have what a new one for the panda should be


You only need to do a rebuild as in the video above if oil is badly leaking past the seals and effecting the sensors, a bit of oil weeping past the seals is catered for by design via drain holes and is collected back in the reservoir


What we need is someone who works on these regularly to write a new trouble shooting guide, the one on the Punto section is getting out of date


There's not many fitted to the panda but I guess it will be the same as the 500

I am no expert on the dualogic though

 

[AnthonyH]

I agree a new guide would be good. I don't know if you saw the post below? Essentially the guy bought a damaged semi- automatic car as a spares and repair, and fixed it. He doesn't say how much he paid but spares and repairs price is usually £300-500. He found some cheap o- rings that fitted and didn't pay the kit price which he said was £300. It was interesting, and made me realise that its not infinitely hard to fix these units, and would probably become easy if you did a few?

Hello - dualogic twinair owner | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Hello, bought a 2011 dualogic twinair with a few issues that ive been fixing for my sister and working through a few issues. Already successfully repaired the selespeed unit, and done a number of other common repairs. Will be on here giving and looking for technical advice. I also have a proper...

www.fiatforum.com

I've previously looked on youtube but didn't find enough useful info on repairs, and think a lot of garages top up the oil as a temporary fix because they can't fix it and the customer wouldn't like the cost anyway.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Iff the accumulators are like Citroens, and they look as if they may be identic, its spinof and on. If itsleaked it woyld need a clean up. Changing one of these is not lijely to be taxing. If a fill set of seeals and gaskets is available, and if you can get new solenoids it sounds like a fin task. Getting the box off would be way harder.

 

[MrMagoo]

Dualogic cars command a sizeable premium over manual cars.
Robotised manual gearboxes will never be a smooth as a torque converter automatic but they are considerably more efficient.

 

[koalar]

Iff the accumulators are like Citroens, and they look as if they may be identic, its spinof and on. If itsleaked it woyld need a clean up. Changing one of these is not lijely to be taxing. If a fill set of seeals and gaskets is available, and if you can get new solenoids it sounds like a fin task. Getting the box off would be way harder.

Yep easy

But needs software, to do the job

Depressurise before removing

Bleed after fitting

Do need to confirm it's failed before charging as it's not a cheap part

 

[AnthonyH]

Dualogic cars command a sizeable premium over manual cars.
Robotised manual gearboxes will never be a smooth as a torque converter automatic but they are considerably more efficient.

I watch various used car sales video bloggers and they all say that automatic cars are snapped up quickly. So i can understand the price premium. I figured it was because they were easier to drive. But you're saying they're more efficient with petrol/diesel? I wasn't aware of that.

 

[MrMagoo]

The Dualogic system is a robotised mechanism fitted on top of a standard manual gearbox. It is more efficient (good mpg) than a regular torque converter automatic gearbox but not as smooth when taking off. Once on the move, the Dualogic is fine.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Yep easy

But needs software, to do the job

Depressurise before removing

Bleed after fitting

Do need to confirm it's failed before charging as it's not a cheap part

View attachment 469699

Anyone wanting an accumulator or a refurb, try Pleiades Ltd Sawtry near Huntingdon. They know these things inside out and may still refurb them.

 

[DaveMcT]

Torque converters with lock up clutch are a better option than robotised manuals they are smoother and put less stress on the transmission. However the expicyclic auto gearbox is expensive and a failed torque converter has to be replaced.

I drive automatic Mercedes Sprinter vans. The biggest annoyance is their learner driver style clutch action at standstill (very slowly finding the bite point). Getting a quick pull away in traffic is near impossible so you have to sit about waiting for someone to take pity and let you in. The TC versions were much better to use and also very good on fuel.

 

[MrMagoo]

There's a lot of misinformed nonsense of the Dualogic mechanism - it is a very reliable system. Forums tend to amplify problems.
The Magneti Marelli system was extensively by Ferrari, Maserati and I believe by BMW and PSA?
It's certainly more reliable than the dreadful PSA/Renault AL4 gearbox.
Yes, a little jerky from takeoff, but my partner doesn't complain and she can only drive automatic vehicles.
Car is approaching 70k miles on the original clutch.