Technical Newbie - Having Starting issue with Ducato

[Bradshah]

Hello everyone.

I’m really hoping someone can kindly point me in the right direction.

This has just come into us.

2003 Fiat Ducato 2.0 JTD.

Engine Cranks, but won’t Start.
If you spray Easy Start Direct into Carb it fires up Straight Away. But if you let off to idle, it dies again.

Checked injectors.
Checked fuel pumps.
Checked for air leaks.
Checked wiring.
Checked fuses.

Key is not original. Looks like it may have had an immobiliser in the past (small hole near steering wheel for immobiliser bulb)

Has an OBD port under steering wheel, but no codes registered.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Immobiliser should be unrelated..

Starting.. is it better with coolant temperature.. or bad Hot and Cold?

 

[Communicator]

Hello everyone.

I’m really hoping someone can kindly point me in the right direction.

This has just come into us.

2003 Fiat Ducato 2.0 JTD.

Engine Cranks, but won’t Start.
If you spray Easy Start Direct into Carb it fires up Straight Away. But if you let off to idle, it dies again.

Checked injectors.
Checked fuel pumps.
Checked for air leaks.
Checked wiring.
Checked fuses.

Key is not original. Looks like it may have had an immobiliser in the past (small hole near steering wheel for immobiliser bulb)

Has an OBD port under steering wheel, but no codes registered.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I suspect that this is an x230 model, but please confirm by checking first three numbers of VIN.

From the above, it appears that injection is not taking place.

If the immobiliser has been removed from a jtd engine, then has the job been done correctly? It would require modification to the ECU software.

With no error codes, the crankshaft sensor is a possible culprit.

 

[Bradshah]

I suspect that this is an x230 model, but please confirm by checking first three numbers of VIN.

From the above, it appears that injection is not taking place.

If the immobiliser has been removed from a jtd engine, then has the job been done correctly? It would require modification to the ECU software.

With no error codes, the crankshaft sensor is a possible culprit.

Hi it’s ZFA244

 

[cid]

Hi all, possibly being a bit thick here but when did diesel engines have carbs.

 

[Communicator]

@cid,
I took it that the OP was refering to the air intake.

@Bradshah
I would expect an earlier x244 to have the same instrument panel and warning lights as my own 2006 x244 2.8jtd.

The Fiat immobiliser symbol is a padlock symbol towards the lower left of the instrument panel. Normal behaviour is for the light to illuminate briefly, and then go out when the key is recognised.

Perhaps you were referring to an aftermarket alarm/immobiliser? My Panel Van Conversion (PVC) has added warning lights for such an alarm/immobilaser?? and for a slide out step at the sliding door.

I am attaching in two parts the Fiat eLearn diagram E5050 for the 2.0jtd. You have checked fuses, but have you confirmed 12V at both sides when ignition on. Relay T09 is the main injection relay, and fuses F17 and F22 will be the critical fuses.

 

[Bradshah]

@cid,
I took it that the OP was refering to the air intake.

@Bradshah
I would expect an earlier x244 to have the same instrument panel and warning lights as my own 2006 x244 2.8jtd.

The Fiat immobiliser symbol is a padlock symbol towards the lower left of the instrument panel. Normal behaviour is for the light to illuminate briefly, and then go out when the key is recognised.

Perhaps you were referring to an aftermarket alarm/immobiliser? My Panel Van Conversion (PVC) has added warning lights for such an alarm/immobilaser?? and for a slide out step at the sliding door.

I am attaching in two parts the Fiat eLearn diagram E5050 for the 2.0jtd. You have checked fuses, but have you confirmed 12V at both sides when ignition on. Relay T09 is the main injection relay, and fuses F17 and F22 will be the critical fuses.

Apologies, i meant inlet not carb.

Thank you kindly for the diagram and possible area to investigate.

One thing is that the Ignition key is aftermarket (as it’s a Flip Key, where the key folds into the plastic moulding)

I will recheck to see if the key symbol comes on and goes out when ignition is on.

Will report back. Thank you

 

[Communicator]

Apologies, i meant inlet not carb.

Thank you kindly for the diagram and possible area to investigate.

One thing is that the Ignition key is aftermarket (as it’s a Flip Key, where the key folds into the plastic moulding)

I will recheck to see if the key symbol comes on and goes out when ignition is on.

Will report back. Thank you

Our PVC came with 2 off flip keys as standard. plus aftermarket alarm fobs. The flip keys did not have buttons.

When you have had fey code failure, you watch the symbol carefully.

 

[Bradshah]

Our PVC came with 2 off flip keys as standard. plus aftermarket alarm fobs. The flip keys did not have buttons.

When you have had fey code failure, you watch the symbol carefully.

With regards the key, that’s correct,it doesn’t have any buttons.

So if there was an immobiliser fault, would it be still possible to start it with EasyStart sprayed directly into the intake? I must add that it only takes one squirt of the spray to fire the engine up straight away. And revs happily, until you leave the pedal and the the revs drops and the engine stalls/cuts out.

 

[Communicator]

It would start with EasyStart, but not continue to run, as the only fuel would be the Easy Start.

 

[Bradshah]

It would start with EasyStart, but not continue to run, as the only fuel would be the Easy Start.

We’ve had it running for around 1 hour, but making sure the revs are up. Once we let go of the pedal, its stalls out.

 

[Bradshah]

It would start with EasyStart, but not continue to run, as the only fuel would be the Easy Start.

With a squirt of EasyStart, i had it running for nearly and hour, keeping the accelerator pedal at around 2.5k rpm. When finally letting go, it cut out.

Would this still suggest immobiliser? Or could it be more likely Fuel/Air Fault? Thanks

 

[Bradshah]

Hi, fuses above have been checked and are all ok.

When turning ignition on, yellow car with padlock sign comes on and goes off (left hand corner of dash) before starting.

 

[Communicator]

With a squirt of EasyStart, i had it running for nearly and hour, keeping the accelerator pedal at around 2.5k rpm. When finally letting go, it cut out.

Would this still suggest immobiliser? Or could it be more likely Fuel/Air Fault? Thanks

The fact that it will run for nearly an hour confirms that it is not an immobiliser problem either Fiat (padlock symbol), or aftermarket device.

My suspicion is that it is fuel related. You have previously stated that the fuel pumps have been checked. However if the HP pump delivers insufficient pressure at low rpm, that would explain the failure to start, and run at tickover.

The LP (tank) pump can also cause problems, see this current thread relating to 2.0jtd cutting out. Post #39 gives a diagnosis.

 

[Bradshah]

The fact that it will run for nearly an hour confirms that it is not an immobiliser problem either Fiat (padlock symbol), or aftermarket device.

My suspicion is that it is fuel related. You have previously stated that the fuel pumps have been checked. However if the HP pump delivers insufficient pressure at low rpm, that would explain the failure to start, and run at tickover.

The LP (tank) pump can also cause problems, see this current thread relating to 2.0jtd cutting out. Post #39 gives a diagnosis.

Thank you again for your kind response.

We do have a spare fuel pump. So we will swap this out and report back.

Thanks again.

 

[varesecrazy]

Thank you again for your kind response.

We do have a spare fuel pump. So we will swap this out and report back.

Thanks again.

Diagnostic kit plugged into the OBD port should tell you what Rail pressure the ECU is seeing..

If it sees 'low' pressure it will not allow the injectors to fire

(Pressure is Massive.. so this is the safest way of investigating it)

 

[Bradshah]

Update:

Fuel Pump was replaced this afternoon. Unfortunately, it still won’t fire up.

However, 3 things were noticed.

1. The engine cranked alot faster.

2. Again we used EasyStart (one squirt is all it needed) and this time the engine ran noticeably smoother.

3. It was far easier this time to control the lower revs with the accelerator pedal, as before the revs were pretty erratic below 3000rpm. Now it’s was far easier to control the revs down to 1000rpm.

Again, once the pedal was let go, it stalled and engine stopped.

(One last thing to mention was that using a fault finding tool, and looking at the live data while engine was running before we changed the Fuel Pump, everything was within parameters, except Throttle Response, below 3000rpm it was ready 0.0, and above 3000rpm it started to read correctly.)

Any further ideas on this?

 

[varesecrazy]

Update:

Fuel Pump was replaced this afternoon. Unfortunately, it still won’t fire up.

However, 3 things were noticed.

1. The engine cranked alot faster.

2. Again we used EasyStart (one squirt is all it needed) and this time the engine ran noticeably smoother.

3. It was far easier this time to control the lower revs with the accelerator pedal, as before the revs were pretty erratic below 3000rpm. Now it’s was far easier to control the revs down to 1000rpm.

Again, once the pedal was let go, it stalled and engine stopped.

(One last thing to mention was that using a fault finding tool, and looking at the live data while engine was running before we changed the Fuel Pump, everything was within parameters, except Throttle Response, below 3000rpm it was ready 0.0, and above 3000rpm it started to read correctly.)

Any further ideas on this?

What rail pressure at cranking?

 

[Bradshah]

What rail pressure at cranking?

We’ve not tested this yet. All we’ve done so far is open each injector and cranked it, and they all shoot out a load of diesel very powerfully (I know it’s not very scientific l)

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

I'm just wondering if this could be a problem with the 'throttle' pedal itself. Although unlikely, I think it should be eliminated as a cause. See K055 on the attached diagram. The 'drive by wire' throttle pedal has two potentiometers ('pots') to signal its position to the ECU. Each pot has 3 wires, so a total of 6 wires go back to the ECU. The ECU will check that it gets more or less the same reading from both pots, as a safety feature. I don't know what strategy it uses if this is not the case, but it might prevent running. The pots can be independently checked with an ohmmeter after disconnection.