Technical Newbie with a weird Ducato indicator fault

[sharky206]

Hi folks - I'm a newbie on the forum.
We have a 2011 Ducato 2.2 120 multijet panel van that's been converted by Devon into a camper.
We have an odd fault I'm stumped with so hoping someone might have a better idea than the option we've been given by our local Fiat dealer!
The problem is the nearside front indicator is not working at all.
Its been into the the local Fiat dealer who want it back in for further diagnostics after an initial look that proved fruitless.
They've suggested it may need a new BCM which apparently costs £1100 for the new unit - same old story that the cost of everything has soared recently
The bulb doesnt flash on hazards or when you lock the vehicle with the remote.
Also it doesn't fast flash to indicate a fault and there is no light on the dash to indicate a bulb out.
All other lights work and there are no other problems I'm aware of apart from some lights on the dash glow a bit in the dark.
I've changed the bulb and swapped the bulb holder from the one on the opposite side, I've also tried swapping the entire headlamp unit as well but still no joy.
If I measure the voltage at the contact points on the bulb holder it fluctuates from 11.6v - 9.9v, I presume the fluctuation is for the flash.
On the working (drivers) side the voltage is exactly 12v fluctuating to 9.9v.
I'm surprised that the small drop of 0.4v is enough for the bulb not to light but I've been told it's down to "loading" which I dont really understand.

As a last resort I wondered if i could run a wire from the working rear indicator to the wire feeding the faulty indicator but would that confuse the BCM and cause other problems to surface I wonder?!

Any help or ideas much appreciated!

Thank you

 

[Communicator]

Hi folks - I'm a newbie on the forum.
We have a 2011 Ducato 2.2 120 multijet panel van that's been converted by Devon into a camper.
We have an odd fault I'm stumped with so hoping someone might have a better idea than the option we've been given by our local Fiat dealer!
The problem is the nearside front indicator is not working at all.
Its been into the the local Fiat dealer who want it back in for further diagnostics after an initial look that proved fruitless.
They've suggested it may need a new BCM which apparently costs £1100 for the new unit - same old story that the cost of everything has soared recently
The bulb doesnt flash on hazards or when you lock the vehicle with the remote.
Also it doesn't fast flash to indicate a fault and there is no light on the dash to indicate a bulb out.
All other lights work and there are no other problems I'm aware of apart from some lights on the dash glow a bit in the dark.
I've changed the bulb and swapped the bulb holder from the one on the opposite side, I've also tried swapping the entire headlamp unit as well but still no joy.
If I measure the voltage at the contact points on the bulb holder it fluctuates from 11.6v - 9.9v, I presume the fluctuation is for the flash.
On the working (drivers) side the voltage is exactly 12v fluctuating to 9.9v.
I'm surprised that the small drop of 0.4v is enough for the bulb not to light but I've been told it's down to "loading" which I dont really understand.

As a last resort I wondered if i could run a wire from the working rear indicator to the wire feeding the faulty indicator but would that confuse the BCM and cause other problems to surface I wonder?!

Any help or ideas much appreciated!

Thank you

Hi,
Your vehicle is probably an x250 model, but check the first three numbers of the VIN to confirm.
If you are testing with a multimeter, but without the bulb inserted, then the 11.6V suggests an high reistance in the wiring, or other fault. Page 126 of the "x250 Training Manual" which is available via the downloads section, shows that the LH front direction indicator is connected to the BCM at pin 05 of the lower RH 52 way connector at the front of the BCM. Count across from the top RH corner of the connector. Testing voltage at this point by back probing the connector, with lamp unit connected and disconnected would help to localise the problem.

Linking front and rear direction indicators would probably cause the BCM to report a fault.

 

[sharky206]

Hi,
Your vehicle is probably an x250 model, but check the first three numbers of the VIN to confirm.
If you are testing with a multimeter, but without the bulb inserted, then the 11.6V suggests an high reistance in the wiring, or other fault. Page 126 of the "x250 Training Manual" which is available via the downloads section, shows that the LH front direction indicator is connected to the BCM at pin 05 of the lower RH 52 way connector at the front of the BCM. Count across from the top RH corner of the connector. Testing voltage at this point by back probing the connector, with lamp unit connected and disconnected would help to localise the problem.

Linking front and rear direction indicators would probably cause the BCM to report a fault.

Thanks ever so much for the reply,
I've checked the VIN and yes it's an x250 model.
To confirm, yes I have been using a multimeter without the bulb inserted to test.
My knowledge of vehicle electrics is fairly basic but this gives me something to go on though - I've found the training manual so hopefully I can use that to locate the BCM and delve a bit deeper. (I think its behind the fuesbox by the drivers right knee but hopefully the manual will confirm that.)
Thanks again

 

[Communicator]

Thanks ever so much for the reply,
I've checked the VIN and yes it's an x250 model.
To confirm, yes I have been using a multimeter without the bulb inserted to test.
My knowledge of vehicle electrics is fairly basic but this gives me something to go on though - I've found the training manual so hopefully I can use that to locate the BCM and delve a bit deeper. (I think its behind the fuesbox by the drivers right knee but hopefully the manual will confirm that.)
Thanks again

Yes, behind the fuse panel.

To help others, please keep in touch and report resolution.

 

[sharky206]

Yes, behind the fuse panel.

To help others, please keep in touch and report resolution.

Update on this one.
I wasnt able to get a probe on the BCM to measure voltage myself as there is no access to the pins from behind, it's solid plastic at the back.
However its been back to the Fiat dealer who have assured me it's definitely the BCM that is at fault.
They have quoted £1495 plus VAT for the part and plus labour to swap and code the new module.
All in all it's around £2100 to get the indicator working again and a 10 day wait for the part.
Bit gutted to be honest - how can it cost so much to get a faulty indicator sorted out
Been looking for a replacement 2nd hand one on Ebay and getting mine cloned to it - lots of people advertising to do that on Ebay but as yet not able to locate one that has the exact part number as mine which is 1369216080.
Getting the existing one repaired would seem like the best option so I've also contacted "Actronics" and "bcmrepairs.online" who claim to be able to do a repair.
Any further suggestions or recommendations would be welcome.
Thanks!

 

[linknet]

Update on this one.
I wasnt able to get a probe on the BCM to measure voltage myself as there is no access to the pins from behind, it's solid plastic at the back.
However its been back to the Fiat dealer who have assured me it's definitely the BCM that is at fault.
They have quoted £1495 plus VAT for the part and plus labour to swap and code the new module.
All in all it's around £2100 to get the indicator working again and a 10 day wait for the part.
Bit gutted to be honest - how can it cost so much to get a faulty indicator sorted out
Been looking for a replacement 2nd hand one on Ebay and getting mine cloned to it - lots of people advertising to do that on Ebay but as yet not able to locate one that has the exact part number as mine which is 1369216080.
Getting the existing one repaired would seem like the best option so I've also contacted "Actronics" and "bcmrepairs.online" who claim to be able to do a repair.
Any further suggestions or recommendations would be welcome.
Thanks!

If you can identify the wire close to the BCM connecter, should be Pink/Black, then you could try the old trick of pushing a thin needle through the wire and connecting the probe to that. The hole it makes is virtually invisible once the needle is removed.

 

[sharky206]

If you can identify the wire close to the BCM connecter, should be Pink/Black, then you could try the old trick of pushing a thin needle through the wire and connecting the probe to that. The hole it makes is virtually invisible once the needle is remov

If you can identify the wire close to the BCM connecter, should be Pink/Black, then you could try the old trick of pushing a thin needle through the wire and connecting the probe to that. The hole it makes is virtually invisible once the needle is removed.

Didnt know that one - Thats a good tip - thanks

 

[jackwhoo]

Does the side indicator repeater work?

 

[Anthony489]

Hi sharky206

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Fiat (and all other) dealers work on the basis of replacing things until the fault is clear. That's fine for them, because it's not their money they are spending. It could be that you are indeed unlucky and have a partial failure of the BCM, but if it were me I would want to be pretty certain it wasn't something else like a chafed wire or a poor connector contact.

To explain the loading effect, let's say you have a 6 ohm load like an indicator bulb. Feed it with 12 volts and it will draw 2 amps and light normally. If there is now a 1 ohm unwanted series resistance from a bad connection, the current will drop to 12/7 amps ( 1.7 amps ) and the voltage across the bulb will be only 10.3 volts with the "missing" 1.7 volts being lost as voltage drop across the 1 ohm. Measuring the voltage between the bulb "live" connection and chassis with the bulb in place will show up the fault. ( BTW I have simplified a bit by assuming the bulb resistance is constant, in reality it's less when not fully illuminated but you get the idea ).

If you then took the bulb out and tested again with a voltmeter the only load is the voltmeter which these days could be 10 million ohms. The current drawn is so tiny that the 1 ohm unwanted series resistance won't make a jot of difference to the reading and you will still see 12 volts. If you do see a reduced voltage, it implies that you have an unwanted series resistance which is rather high.

I attach the relevant schematics for the X250 indicators. You will see that there is a single feed from the BCM to each front indicator, so a fault with that BCM circuit or the wiring can affect just the one bulb and all the others will work away happily. This seems to be the situation you are in. I suggest you take a close look at the wiring, and if necessary run a new temporary wire from BCM to indicator. I suspect the few inches you can see each end will be OK, but there may be a break somwhere in between and bridging this will prove a point.

Given the eye watering cost of a new BCM, If it really were faulty I would be tempted to use a workaround. Get an auto electrician to rewire the front indicator to be controlled from the rear indicator feed but via a relay. The extra loading of the relay coil is about 30 times less than a bulb, and won't be enough to throw a fault. This use of relays was once common practice for towbar electrics.

 

[sharky206]

Hi sharky206

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Fiat (and all other) dealers work on the basis of replacing things until the fault is clear. That's fine for them, because it's not their money they are spending. It could be that you are indeed unlucky and have a partial failure of the BCM, but if it were me I would want to be pretty certain it wasn't something else like a chafed wire or a poor connector contact.

To explain the loading effect, let's say you have a 6 ohm load like an indicator bulb. Feed it with 12 volts and it will draw 2 amps and light normally. If there is now a 1 ohm unwanted series resistance from a bad connection, the current will drop to 12/7 amps ( 1.7 amps ) and the voltage across the bulb will be only 10.3 volts with the "missing" 1.7 volts being lost as voltage drop across the 1 ohm. Measuring the voltage between the bulb "live" connection and chassis with the bulb in place will show up the fault. ( BTW I have simplified a bit by assuming the bulb resistance is constant, in reality it's less when not fully illuminated but you get the idea ).

If you then took the bulb out and tested again with a voltmeter the only load is the voltmeter which these days could be 10 million ohms. The current drawn is so tiny that the 1 ohm unwanted series resistance won't make a jot of difference to the reading and you will still see 12 volts. If you do see a reduced voltage, it implies that you have an unwanted series resistance which is rather high.

I attach the relevant schematics for the X250 indicators. You will see that there is a single feed from the BCM to each front indicator, so a fault with that BCM circuit or the wiring can affect just the one bulb and all the others will work away happily. This seems to be the situation you are in. I suggest you take a close look at the wiring, and if necessary run a new temporary wire from BCM to indicator. I suspect the few inches you can see each end will be OK, but there may be a break somwhere in between and bridging this will prove a point.

Given the eye watering cost of a new BCM, If it really were faulty I would be tempted to use a workaround. Get an auto electrician to rewire the front indicator to be controlled from the rear indicator feed but via a relay. The extra loading of the relay coil is about 30 times less than a bulb, and won't be enough to throw a fault. This use of relays was once common practice for towbar electrics.

Morning

Does the side indicator repeater work?

We have wing mirror indicators and they are both working. (I think that's what you mean by "side indicator repeater".)
Basically everything works apart from the nearside front.)

 

[sharky206]

Hi sharky206

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Fiat (and all other) dealers work on the basis of replacing things until the fault is clear. That's fine for them, because it's not their money they are spending. It could be that you are indeed unlucky and have a partial failure of the BCM, but if it were me I would want to be pretty certain it wasn't something else like a chafed wire or a poor connector contact.

To explain the loading effect, let's say you have a 6 ohm load like an indicator bulb. Feed it with 12 volts and it will draw 2 amps and light normally. If there is now a 1 ohm unwanted series resistance from a bad connection, the current will drop to 12/7 amps ( 1.7 amps ) and the voltage across the bulb will be only 10.3 volts with the "missing" 1.7 volts being lost as voltage drop across the 1 ohm. Measuring the voltage between the bulb "live" connection and chassis with the bulb in place will show up the fault. ( BTW I have simplified a bit by assuming the bulb resistance is constant, in reality it's less when not fully illuminated but you get the idea ).

If you then took the bulb out and tested again with a voltmeter the only load is the voltmeter which these days could be 10 million ohms. The current drawn is so tiny that the 1 ohm unwanted series resistance won't make a jot of difference to the reading and you will still see 12 volts. If you do see a reduced voltage, it implies that you have an unwanted series resistance which is rather high.

I attach the relevant schematics for the X250 indicators. You will see that there is a single feed from the BCM to each front indicator, so a fault with that BCM circuit or the wiring can affect just the one bulb and all the others will work away happily. This seems to be the situation you are in. I suggest you take a close look at the wiring, and if necessary run a new temporary wire from BCM to indicator. I suspect the few inches you can see each end will be OK, but there may be a break somwhere in between and bridging this will prove a point.

Given the eye watering cost of a new BCM, If it really were faulty I would be tempted to use a workaround. Get an auto electrician to rewire the front indicator to be controlled from the rear indicator feed but via a relay. The extra loading of the relay coil is about 30 times less than a bulb, and won't be enough to throw a fault. This use of relays was once common practice for towbar electrics.

Morning Anthony
Fabulous informative reply - thank you
My concern since the Fiat dealers diagnosis has been how sure are they the BCM is really the issue.
There is that underlying worry that if we follow their advise and change the BCM we still have the problem or they realise upon changing the BCM it hasn't been resolved, then find & bypass a faulty wire and brush the new BCM under the carpet still charging us over £2000 for supplying & fitting it.
After speaking to several auto electricians over the past few days they've all cast doubt on it being the BCM at fault but unfortunately none around here have had any availability to look at it for the next 3 weeks.
We've been going out of our minds trying to work out what the best way to get this resolved but your response has made me realise we need to get the van back from the Fiat dealer and take an alternative look at the problem.
Sorry if this is a dumb question from a person with only basic knowledge of these things but to run a temporary wire from the BCM to the faulty indicator is it best to identify the correct wire each end, cut the existing one and splice to a temporary wire?
You may well say if I'm asking a question like that I should be waiting for the auto electrician in 3 weeks which is fair enough
After that the relay suggestion you've made confirms a similar theory my father was trying to articulate to me yesterday and that sounds like the most sensible way to go about this. (Based on the result of running the temporary wire from BCM to indicator of course.)
I will keep the thread updated as we learn more.
Thanks ever so much for taking the time to write your response - it really is very, very helpful and extremely appreciated!!

 

[Communicator]

Hi sharky206

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Fiat (and all other) dealers work on the basis of replacing things until the fault is clear. That's fine for them, because it's not their money they are spending. It could be that you are indeed unlucky and have a partial failure of the BCM, but if it were me I would want to be pretty certain it wasn't something else like a chafed wire or a poor connector contact.

To explain the loading effect, let's say you have a 6 ohm load like an indicator bulb. Feed it with 12 volts and it will draw 2 amps and light normally. If there is now a 1 ohm unwanted series resistance from a bad connection, the current will drop to 12/7 amps ( 1.7 amps ) and the voltage across the bulb will be only 10.3 volts with the "missing" 1.7 volts being lost as voltage drop across the 1 ohm. Measuring the voltage between the bulb "live" connection and chassis with the bulb in place will show up the fault. ( BTW I have simplified a bit by assuming the bulb resistance is constant, in reality it's less when not fully illuminated but you get the idea ).

If you then took the bulb out and tested again with a voltmeter the only load is the voltmeter which these days could be 10 million ohms. The current drawn is so tiny that the 1 ohm unwanted series resistance won't make a jot of difference to the reading and you will still see 12 volts. If you do see a reduced voltage, it implies that you have an unwanted series resistance which is rather high.

I attach the relevant schematics for the X250 indicators. You will see that there is a single feed from the BCM to each front indicator, so a fault with that BCM circuit or the wiring can affect just the one bulb and all the others will work away happily. This seems to be the situation you are in. I suggest you take a close look at the wiring, and if necessary run a new temporary wire from BCM to indicator. I suspect the few inches you can see each end will be OK, but there may be a break somwhere in between and bridging this will prove a point.

Given the eye watering cost of a new BCM, If it really were faulty I would be tempted to use a workaround. Get an auto electrician to rewire the front indicator to be controlled from the rear indicator feed but via a relay. The extra loading of the relay coil is about 30 times less than a bulb, and won't be enough to throw a fault. This use of relays was once common practice for towbar electrics.

I wish to register my appreciation of the above post by @Anthony489 . It is a well written explanation of the problems that may be encountered when using a multimeter to diagnose faults, about which I have warned on several occasions in other threads.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi and a quick update

If you have a wire with a break somewhere in the middle, in theory you can just bridge across it by joining a new wire from near one end (where you can get access) to near the other end. However, the break might have been caused by chafing, with the risk that one or both sides of the break is touching earthed metal. So the safest way is to go a step further (as you are contemplating) and completely isolate the middle unknown section by making a cut near both ends, then joining your new link wire to the remaining short length to the BCM and the remaining short length to the indicator. I hope this makes sense. I suggest you do a temporary job first to see if it's successful before making anything tidier.

As an intermediate step, I suggest you join the new wire just to the indicator and then connect it to a source of 12 volts (ideally via a fuse) to check that the indicator lights up normally.

 

[sharky206]

Hi and a quick update

If you have a wire with a break somewhere in the middle, in theory you can just bridge across it by joining a new wire from near one end (where you can get access) to near the other end. However, the break might have been caused by chafing, with the risk that one or both sides of the break is touching earthed metal. So the safest way is to go a step further (as you are contemplating) and completely isolate the middle unknown section by making a cut near both ends, then joining your new link wire to the remaining short length to the BCM and the remaining short length to the indicator. I hope this makes sense. I suggest you do a temporary job first to see if it's successful before making anything tidier.

As an intermediate step, I suggest you join the new wire just to the indicator and then connect it to a source of 12 volts (ideally via a fuse) to check that the indicator lights up normally.

Another great piece of advice - thank you

 

[sharky206]

A fair bit has happened since I last updated this thread so I'm going to update this now as accurately as possible with how things panned out in the end:

1. I bought a second hand BCM on eBay for £250, plugged it in and the faulty indicator worked straight away. Unfortunately at this point I did not test everything else such as lights wipers etc. but will get to that in a minute!
As this appeared to fix the fault I sent the old and new BCM's to someone else on eBay and had it cloned for £70.
2. Plugged the cloned BCM in and at first everything seemed great. It was plug and play as the guy who cloned it said it would be so there was no need to recode my keys to it.
However although the indicator fault cleared, the windscreen washers and main beam on the headlights did not work! (They did before.)
3. I returned the replacement/ cloned BCM and got a full refund and reverted to the original one so at this point I'd only lost £70 on the cloning.
4. With the help of my father we build up a small bit of circuitry incorporating a relay and following the advise of @Anthony489
5. We located the wire from the working rear nearside indicator at junction point D229 on the diagrams. For reference this is under the plastic in the footwell that the driver steps onto when getting into the cab.
The wire is pink black.
I ran a fused connection to the battery from the relay and 2 wires to the nearside front headlight unit - one connecting to the existing indicator bulb and the second a return wire which basically extends the connection from the BCM to the headlight back to D229.
The primary side of the relay was connected into the pink/black wire from the rear indicator and the secondary side to the new wire going to the bulb.
This worked perfectly and brought the faulty front indicator back to life but obviously there was a fault on the dash at this point as the BCM was seeing the bulb as disconnected.
So using the return wire from the headlight to D229 I connected a dummy bulb in a cheap bulb holder to restore connectivity from the BCM to what it thinks is the bulb on the nearside front indicator.
This cleared the dash fault.

So all is now well and I've avoided the £1800 plus labour for recoding a new BCM to the van from Fiat.

At this point I'd like to say thank you so much to all you wonderful people who have offered advice and help me get this going!
Special thanks to @Anthony489 for you very much appreciated input and advice. In hindsight I should have gone straight to this and not bothered with a second hand BCM but I thought it was worth a shot to give it ago.

Thanks again