New MHEV 500 & Panda

[Didge3]

Not sure if they've already been talked about on here but I've been seeing adverts for them now.

Feel its a bit of a let down from Fiat, barely even fits 'Mild Hybrid' IMO.

 

[DaveMcT]

It's just enough to get around city emission zone rules. Very sad really.

I would be chuffed to bits if this really happened in 2021 but not holding my breath.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...r-show/new-fiat-panda-could-launch-early-2021

 

[varesecrazy]

Not sure if they've already been talked about on here but I've been seeing adverts for them now.

Feel its a bit of a let down from Fiat, barely even fits 'Mild Hybrid' IMO.

Yes.. mentioned elsewhere

I know 'cos I replied.

Thats OLD..
if we were going to dream..
I WANT THE 127

 

[chris3234]

A 20 miles range electric motor on the rear wheels would be a nice sort of hybrid system not this jokey thing

 

[varesecrazy]

As was discussed..

This 48volt tech is what was developed in the last 3 or 4 years..as a stop.gap

Alongside the partnership with Tesla to allay crippling emissions fines.

The real stuff is not that far away..

But of course it may go..

'All PSA'

Before any real electric small FIATs appear on our roads

 

[AndyRKett]

It’s not even 48v it’s a 12v system, the “hybrid” part wouldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding. Trying to move the car on electric power only (which it can’t do) would be like the good old days of using the starter motor to move a dead car out of a garage

 

[g8rpi]

It’s not even 48v it’s a 12v system, the “hybrid” part wouldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding. Trying to move the car on electric power only (which it can’t do) would be like the good old days of using the starter motor to move a dead car out of a garage

Well the motor on the mini-hybrid Firefly engine is 3.6kW or 4.8hp so you must have a pretty tough rice pudding ;-). To put it in context that is just under 1/3 of the power of the first 500. Like all Hybrids with the motor on the engine side of the transmission, including the standard Prius, the motor cannot drive the car directly. It's not designed to. It's designed to add power, particuarly torque, to improve perfomaance and allow the engine tuning to be less of a compromise between emissions and drivability. They also allow energy recovery during braking.

Other advantages, depending on spcific design, of the micro-hybrid is reduced weight by replacing the starter motor and alternator with a single unit. The battery is also smaller and lighter. Noting that the 11Ah 12V in the Fiat system will only run the motor at full power for 130 seconds so it really is just torque assistance.
I can't say how they drive because I have not driven one. Don't knock it until you have tried it.


Robert G8RPI

 

[AndyRKett]

Well the motor on the mini-hybrid Firefly engine is 3.6kW or 4.8hp so you must have a pretty tough rice pudding ;-). To put it in context that is just under 1/3 of the power of the first 500. Like all Hybrids with the motor on the engine side of the transmission, including the standard Prius, the motor cannot drive the car directly. It's not designed to. It's designed to add power, particuarly torque, to improve perfomaance and allow the engine tuning to be less of a compromise between emissions and drivability. They also allow energy recovery during braking.

Other advantages, depending on spcific design, of the micro-hybrid is reduced weight by replacing the starter motor and alternator with a single unit. The battery is also smaller and lighter. Noting that the 11Ah 12V in the Fiat system will only run the motor at full power for 130 seconds so it really is just torque assistance.
I can't say how they drive because I have not driven one. Don't knock it until you have tried it.


Robert G8RPI

Well done at failing to understand a “figure of speech” that said 4.8hp in a car weighing over a ton versus the original fiat 500 that weighed less than half that. I have a compressor that’s more powerful, yet I don’t suspect it would move a ton worth of car and pull the skin off a rice pudding.

Nope this “hybrid” system is literally nothing more than a stop start system. There is nothing this set up offers that vw bluemotion hasn’t been doing since circa 2008.

I remember reading about this “mild hybrid” system in a trade magazine in about 2005. Realistically there is no new technology here, this is 15 year old tech.

 

[g8rpi]

Who said it was new?
You are knocking a car which you have probably never even seen let alone driven.

Micro hybrid is what it is. It is more than stop start, providing extra torque during acceleration and recovering energy under braking.
BlueMotion is a marketing name, no longer used, that can refer to anything from low rolling resistance tyres to a micro hybrid system.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[AndyRKett]

Who said it was new?
You are knocking a car which you have probably never even seen let alone driven.

I'm Knocking a marketing Gimmick. Fiat doesn't have "hybrid" technology.

If you watch the adverts they are selling a "mild hybrid" when it's not even as advanced as a 1997 prius.

It doesn't matter If the car drives like a dream, it is not the hybrid they are promising.

If you were to believe the Fiat Marketing then you would think you are getting a proper hybrid, which it is not.

You point out yourself that the motor can only deliver 130 seconds of assistance, so how much do you think that is going to help the overall economy of the car on a 60 mile drive, verses, say turning off the aircon for 3 minutes....

 

[g8rpi]

Fiat are advertising it as a mild hybrid, IT IS A MILD HYBRID.
There is no misrepresentation.

It is more advanced (but less integrated) than a 1997 Prius, not least because it uses a Lithium ion battery, not a NiMh one.
No mild hybrid has an advantage on a 60 mile journey at highway speeds, thats not what they are best for.
Have you driven any hybrid?

Robert G8RPI.

 

[AndyRKett]

Have you driven any hybrid?

Yes.....but feel free to explain what relevance that has in this case...?

There is no drive to the wheels supplied by electrical power, there is no time the wheels or motion of the car is powered by electrical power. So how is this in any way shape or form a “hybrid”

What this is is a different take on a starter motor/alternator. It’s all very well fitting a lithium battery, (more marketing nonsense) but people get annoyed at the price of a stop start battery, how much will a replacement battery for one of these cars cost ? A bargain I’m sure and likely only available from fiat.

Also if you look into it one of Fiat’s selling points is the ability to coast out of gear with the engine off, coasting which is something that no one in the uk is ever taught to so...... that’s a pointless marketing point.

You can argue you don’t like my opinion all you like; makes no odds to me, but can you give any real advantages to this set up, over a conventional car or a Bluemotion type set up? The new 3 cylinder engine is likely to provide an element of improvement in consumption over the old 1.2 or the multiair which had highly questionable fuel consumtion figures. You’ve just spent a lot of money on an actual proper plug in hybrid, this car is in essence claiming to be the same thing.

The only thing “Hybrid” about these cars is what the fiat marketing department want you to think.

 

[Eklipze3k]

You can argue about how relevant the name is all you like, the important take away that I think we can all agree on is that this is a stop-gap, until FCPSA (or whatever they want to call themselves) can get a proper hybrid/all-electric 500/Panda/127/whatever to the market, which I doubt will happen before 2022 but I look forward to being pleasantly surprised.
Personally, I'd love to see that concept 127 that was floating around a few years become something like the Honda e.

 

[g8rpi]

<SNIP>

There is no drive to the wheels supplied by electrical power, there is no time the wheels or motion of the car is powered by electrical power. So how is this in any way shape or form a “hybrid”

There IS power supplied to the wheels by the motor, the linitation of (any) mild hybrid is that the motor only adds power to the engine, it does not drive the wheels without the engine running. This is the same as the original Prius (well it would do about 1/2 mile at less than 18MPH). Only plug-in or "self-charging" hybrids will run at speed for usefull distance on battery only.
The fiat system could be considered more advanced than the mark 1 prius as it has a combined Starter/Generator/Motor while the Prius had a seperate Starter/Generator and Motor. This is heavier and the geared drive added more weight than Fiat's belt. The 500 is much smaller than the Prius so a lighter, lower power sytem is appropriate.


What this is is a different take on a starter motor/alternator. It’s all very well fitting a lithium battery, (more marketing nonsense) but people get annoyed at the price of a stop start battery, how much will a replacement battery for one of these cars cost ? A bargain I’m sure and likely only available from fiat.

It's not marketing nonsense, it's using appropriate technology. It is again more advanced than the early Prius.
The Lithium battery state of charge is carefully controlled and should last for years, they are not a service item like a lead acid battery.


Also if you look into it one of Fiat’s selling points is the ability to coast out of gear with the engine off, coasting which is something that no one in the uk is ever taught to so...... that’s a pointless marketing point.

The coasting with engine off (rolling stop start) is totally automatic and transparent to the driver (unless they look at a status display). No training required.

You can argue you don’t like my opinion all you like; makes no odds to me, but can you give any real advantages to this set up, over a conventional car or a Bluemotion type set up? The new 3 cylinder engine is likely to provide an element of improvement in consumption over the old 1.2 or the multiair which had highly questionable fuel consumtion figures. You’ve just spent a lot of money on an actual proper plug in hybrid, this car is in essence claiming to be the same thing.


This set-up is functionally the same as the BlueMotion mild hybrid system and more advanced than the lesser BlueMotion systems like Stop/Start. The BlueMotion name you keep refering too is the real marketing "con" as it covers a wide range of systems and only a tiny percentage of cars ( only > 2019 models) with a BlueMotion badge have a mild hybrid system.


The only thing “Hybrid” about these cars is what the fiat marketing department want you to think.

By every definition this is a parallel hybrid petrol/electric drive system. The electrical system adds energy to the engine when it running and recovers energy during deceleration.
If you think Fiat's avertising is decptive compalain to the ASA then come bcke here d tell us what they say.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[varesecrazy]

Thanks bothfor taking the time to help pad out the detail of what tech is actually used.

Be interesting to know what the Corsa is using..by comparison.. PSA have had a year to transfer tech

The ONLY dealings Ive had were with a diesel DS .. so starter-generator
Circa 2010


The only blurb I see about the hybrid 500/panda is 100% recycled seats

Not enough to tempt me I'm afraid
( and flashbacks to vinyl burning your legs back in the 70's)

 

[AndyRKett]

By definition this is a Stop Start Alternator Reversible System.

It is in essence a stop start system that does away with a starter motor and uses a bigger more powerful alternator that can be reversed to use as a motor, the weight savings are negligible as it requires a much more complex system around the drive belt to keep it at high tension. The alternator is much bigger. The estimated savings on fuel are around 2-3% which is less than you’d save by turning off the aircon.

The shocking thing are the MPG figures for the new cars which is rated at about 53mpg combined which is terrible compared to a bluemotion vw polo circa 2006 which could genuinely get a higher fuel economy figure and a sub 99g/km co2 14 years earlier in a bigger car.

But let’s all praise Fiat’s progress...... they could have brought us a propper hybrid, but instead went with a Stop start software update and new alternator and a cheap lithium battery.

 

[DaveMcT]

Last year, FCA bought $1 Billion worth of carbon offsets from Tesla. Hopefully they set up an agreement to buy batteries and drive tech for their new EV models.

The new battery is probably LiFePO4 (LFP), it's actually equivalent to a much bigger lead acid. The lithium can deliver 95% of its capacity at full current whereas a LA can only deliver 30%.

 

[portland_bill]

"Mild Hybrid" is an industry term for this type of low power electrical assistance. I saw an explanation of it somewhere recently, and I think a reference to a Fiesta also using this type of system. No I can't find it again now.

It enables some electrical assistance to be built in to smaller cars where battery and electric motor space is limited. I theory it should give better economy and emissions around town, which is where all of us would like it, when as pedestrians, breathing clean air is nice.

Fiat haven't invented this, they have just used it in their small (only?) cars as it gets them into the hybrid market quickly, while more capable systems and vehicles are developed. For anyone who mostly commutes, it should be fine. Good luck with diagnosis and repairs later, given most Fiat dealers reputations for service levels on standard 100-year-old tech.

 

[StevenRB45]

It is in essence a stop start system that does away with a starter motor and uses a bigger more powerful alternator that can be reversed to use as a motor, the weight savings are negligible as it requires a much more complex system around the drive belt to keep it at high tension. The alternator is much bigger. The estimated savings on fuel are around 2-3% which is less than you’d save by turning off the aircon.

The shocking thing are the MPG figures for the new cars which is rated at about 53mpg combined which is terrible compared to a bluemotion vw polo circa 2006 which could genuinely get a higher fuel economy figure and a sub 99g/km co2 14 years earlier in a bigger car.

But let’s all praise Fiat’s progress...... they could have brought us a propper hybrid, but instead went with a Stop start software update and new alternator and a cheap lithium battery.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the PSA merger...as what you've described there is literally the system from my wifes old DS3 circa 2014.

In the PSA system at the time you had a standard battery with separate lithium capacitor on the top.

If it is this system then the good news is it actually works because the main battery voltage has nothing to do with stop start activation (unlike the previous Fiat effort). The bad news being it is nothing everyone else isn't already doing and has been doing for years.

It also made no difference to the economy of the car it was fitted to iirc a 1.6 diesel that managed to produce 1mpg better economy than the petrol that replaced it. The petrol also has a similar system with the capacitor but they do not call it a mild hybrid because it doesn't have the reversible alternator.

 

[DaveMcT]

The BMW i3 system with small(ish) EV battery and small engine/generator is a good compromise. The EV range is only about 50 miles but the engine allows the car to give excellent mpg on long runs yet be 100% electric for town commutes.
There is no transmission so power at the axle is entirely electric.