Technical multiwagon rear bushes
- Thread starter roy lovelock
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Technical multiwagon rear bushes
bit off topic but what i was actually wondering yesterday is that due to the alfa147 and stilo being very similar would it be possible to retro fit the rear subframe and associated suspension bits from the 147 into the stilo thus giving the stilo independant rear suspension.
Lol at HID one being cheaper. That to make up for the price of HID headlamp units over none HID units
Thanks for your thoughts on that one Brian..
VIC - Vehicle Identity Check
You not meaning that thing that kit cars need to have done are you Phil?
Right I've read through this thread with great interest as my Stilo unoffically failed its MOT this morning on these bushes (5-door none MW).
Is the set-up specific to the MW or the same on the none MW 5-door also? What am I looking at for parts price wise, and are they only available from Fiat?
Jon.
Lol at HID one being cheaper. That to make up for the price of HID headlamp units over none HID units
The only difference I can think of is that the HID version has a mounting bracket for the automatic HID adjuster. Stange that the one with an extra bit of metal welded on is a lot cheaper. Think Fiat pick their prices from a hat.
All versions use the same bushes, about £20 each from Fiat.
Yes John thats what I mean kit cars..I would urge anyone who did this kind of modification to get the car checked over for roadworthiness.. you can book it in yourself to be assessed..
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Guide to Maintaining Road Worthiness.pdf
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Guide to Maintaining Road Worthiness.pdf
Here's a pic I found of some Stilo bushes going in. That looks a very easy to make and very strong compression tool. Looks like 1" steel bar and 2 fine thread screw rods around 3/4" dia
You'd need some kind of spacers towards the end of course to allow the bush through. Time consuming but I don't think the bushes would have any choice but to get in there
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Deckchair.
Nice pictures ,that`s the sort of set up I have been considering but rather than using the nuts to apply the pressure I would use an Enerpac Jack, these vary in force (i.e. Jack/ Piston Diameter) used them at work regularly.
heres link to enerpac site http://www.enerpac.com/en/products/...rsm-rcs-series-low-height-cylinders-0?tid=301
So you could sandwich the jack within the "strongbacks" take up the slack with the nuts on the threaded bar then use the jack to press bushes out/ in.
Rather than making a “Turned” adapter like Yellowstilos to assist pressing the bushes in I intend to drill & tap three holes M10 in some 20mm thick plate and screw three M10 capheads(12.9 grade) of sufficient length thru the plate ,the ends of the capheads would act on the outer wall of the bush to ensure no undue loading to the bush centre.
I intend to use 20mm allthread and 20mm double thickness nuts.
A spacer tube will also be required similar to bush housing dimensions I am going to try and source some Steam or Hydraulic pipe fittings to measure bore /outside diameter & length
My bushes are OK at present, but due to current mileage I am going to make a pressing attachment up just in case.
I can put it to good use anyway-The other halfs Tongue between the bars and a light nip of the nuts for a peaceful weekend
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the problem i can see with that sort of setup is they wont allow the bushes to go completly home, they stick out the bottom by around 20mm, this is the reason why my bushes failed last time as they were not home correctly.
well klann failed to respond to me - thats twice now so i wont bother again - if they cannot return a call they obviously dont want business.
im gona take an angle grinder again to another brand new bush thats just arrived on sunday, im not removing the whole axle, just unbolt the mountings - im sure i can get the failed bush out without too much agro, and the new one im going to town on it so it will virtually fall though lol,
roy
well klann failed to respond to me - thats twice now so i wont bother again - if they cannot return a call they obviously dont want business.
im gona take an angle grinder again to another brand new bush thats just arrived on sunday, im not removing the whole axle, just unbolt the mountings - im sure i can get the failed bush out without too much agro, and the new one im going to town on it so it will virtually fall though lol,
roy
Well there's some nice alternatives there and it comes down to price, whether you want to try to do it in situ or on the bench and whether you want to make a one off or a career out of it
Hydraulic is nice and controlled. Screw threads are easy to replace
They'll all need that spacer in the end to make the bush go fully home of course.
Plates and screws made up might cost as little as £30 from an engineering shop
The first step for me would be to reduce the bush outside diameter to a correct interference fit tolerance and I'd probably have that done at a machine shop too prior to doing the job. It's the understandable time factor when the bushes have already failed and you just want to get it back on the road so I might just get some bushes already and have them done at my local engineers. That's what we're all discussing here, getting prepared for when it does happen so we dont get caught out
What I don't like/ understand is the twisting rotary force the bush is subjected to in use. It's a silentbloc, designed to reduce noise/vibration like an engine mount and yet, as suspension sags and shock absorbers wear out, then it will be subjected to constant internal twisting if the centre bolt allows no turning action. It would explain why the MW suffer the most and why the bushes can fail again so quickly after renewal. Whereas a 3 door carrying very little load in the back might last so much longer mileage
Now if someone said that's it's vital to torque the centre bolt lightly enough so that it still allows some rotary movement in the bush that would make some sense. Or if the bush allowed rotation without severe internal flexing it would be nice. But for all of it to be failrly rigid I can't see what the plan is?
What is the torque for the bush centre bolt?
Why does the bush centre hole have cutouts/ serrations? Is that to allow some settling or twisting?
What is the purpose of the three slots?
Hydraulic is nice and controlled. Screw threads are easy to replace
They'll all need that spacer in the end to make the bush go fully home of course.
Plates and screws made up might cost as little as £30 from an engineering shop
The first step for me would be to reduce the bush outside diameter to a correct interference fit tolerance and I'd probably have that done at a machine shop too prior to doing the job. It's the understandable time factor when the bushes have already failed and you just want to get it back on the road so I might just get some bushes already and have them done at my local engineers. That's what we're all discussing here, getting prepared for when it does happen so we dont get caught out
What I don't like/ understand is the twisting rotary force the bush is subjected to in use. It's a silentbloc, designed to reduce noise/vibration like an engine mount and yet, as suspension sags and shock absorbers wear out, then it will be subjected to constant internal twisting if the centre bolt allows no turning action. It would explain why the MW suffer the most and why the bushes can fail again so quickly after renewal. Whereas a 3 door carrying very little load in the back might last so much longer mileage
Now if someone said that's it's vital to torque the centre bolt lightly enough so that it still allows some rotary movement in the bush that would make some sense. Or if the bush allowed rotation without severe internal flexing it would be nice. But for all of it to be failrly rigid I can't see what the plan is?
What is the torque for the bush centre bolt?
Why does the bush centre hole have cutouts/ serrations? Is that to allow some settling or twisting?
What is the purpose of the three slots?
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" Why does the bush centre hole have cutouts/ serrations? Is that to allow some settling or twisting?
What is the purpose of the three slots? "
the centre hole cutouts are for retaining the outer plate, the plate is secured on the centre bush this way.
the three slots are cutouts for allowing pressing on the outside diameter of the bush, otherwise you would have to press on the outer plate which is connected to the inner rubber moulding with glycol filling and this would probably ruin the bush whilst fitting it.....
What is the purpose of the three slots? "
the centre hole cutouts are for retaining the outer plate, the plate is secured on the centre bush this way.
the three slots are cutouts for allowing pressing on the outside diameter of the bush, otherwise you would have to press on the outer plate which is connected to the inner rubber moulding with glycol filling and this would probably ruin the bush whilst fitting it.....
nearly, the inside cut out is actually the load direction, the last lot of bushes didnt have the arrows on that i bought.
inside the bush there are two bump stops the one thats the cut out side is larger than the the one on the opposite side, now im pretty sure that cut out and arrow are pointing to direction of load, the larger bump stop is the side to take the load (more compression with the bigger stop it will stop the bush being blown out until its worn), so effectively you put the bush with the arrow / cut out pointing up.
roy
Hi All.
Just thinking out loud here about the point that deckchair made concerning the twisting force on the bush.
Having done several sets of these bushes I was always amazed at how easy the centre rubber part of the bush was to remove from the outer steel sleeve.
I seem to remember that once the centre was removed there was no sign of it ever being bonded to the outer part, so am wondering if the entire centre is meant to be able to twist inside the steel sleeve.
It could also explain why some people get squeaking rear suspension.
Just thinking out loud here about the point that deckchair made concerning the twisting force on the bush.
Having done several sets of these bushes I was always amazed at how easy the centre rubber part of the bush was to remove from the outer steel sleeve.
I seem to remember that once the centre was removed there was no sign of it ever being bonded to the outer part, so am wondering if the entire centre is meant to be able to twist inside the steel sleeve.
It could also explain why some people get squeaking rear suspension.
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the mentioned direction of the arrow is not correct - the line of the arrow has to follow the line of the welding seam on the side of the arm with the point of the arrow (and the little cutout in the center bush) pointing towards the driving direction (this will be nearly horizontal with the car load on the axle).
Now i understand why your bushes didn't last very long.....
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the squeaking is caused by the rubbing of the sideplates on the bush shell - there is a service news advising to put Molykote grease between the side plates and the bush sidewalls to stop the squeaking.
The torque isn't shown in the Stilo eLEARN but the Stilo and Grande Punto 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 bushes are the same part number. Grande Punto eLEARN shows it as 11.7 - 14.3 daNm (86 - 105 lb/ft)
There's no instructions for replacing the bushes in the Stilo eLEARN. Probably because when it was published, the bushes were not available seperately.
Grande Punto eLEARN shows these instructions.
Price of the tool 2000007800 from Fiat was £16.20 including VAT from February 2010 ePER, but although the bushes are the same, the axle is not. Therefore, the tool may not be suitable for the Stilo.
Interesting that the bushes do need to be fitted the correct way up.
EDIT - This info relates to Grande Punto, not Bravo as I originally posted.
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Thanks for that Davren
Looking at the tool then it would appear that either the Bravo bushes are not ridiculously oversized and have a correct and sensible minimal interference fit or the tool wouldn't stand an earthly chance of working.
So that would be the first job. Obtain bushes and get them to the correct outside diameter dimensions
Then it says don't do the job outside in the cold, in a garage or warehouse so a quick, clanking drive to somewhere in the Mediterranean would be a bonus
Looking at the tool then it would appear that either the Bravo bushes are not ridiculously oversized and have a correct and sensible minimal interference fit or the tool wouldn't stand an earthly chance of working.
So that would be the first job. Obtain bushes and get them to the correct outside diameter dimensions
Then it says don't do the job outside in the cold, in a garage or warehouse so a quick, clanking drive to somewhere in the Mediterranean would be a bonus
Thanks for that Davren
Looking at the tool then it would appear that either the Bravo bushes are not ridiculously oversized and have a correct and sensible minimal interference fit or the tool wouldn't stand an earthly chance of working.
So that would be the first job. Obtain bushes and get them to the correct outside diameter dimensions
Then it says don't do the job outside in the cold, in a garage or warehouse so a quick, clanking drive to somewhere in the Mediterranean would be a bonus
You didnt push his thankyou button Decks..i think that deserves one dont you..
I actually said "Thanks" if you look but I'm all for pushing buttons
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Looking at the tool then it would appear that either the Bravo bushes are not ridiculously oversized and have a correct and sensible minimal interference fit or the tool wouldn't stand an earthly chance of working.
The bushes are the same part number so will be the same size. My guess is that Fiat have learnt from the Stilo problem and manufactured the bush housing in the Bravo axle slightly larger.
Then it says don't do the job outside in the cold, in a garage or warehouse so a quick, clanking drive to somewhere in the Mediterranean would be a bonus
I'm driving to Greece in two weeks, I'll have to get them done while I'm there.
