- Joined
- May 5, 2006
- Messages
- 894
- Points
- 214
i'm afraid the Klann tool will be very expensive...good luck!
Technical multiwagon rear bushes
- Thread starter roy lovelock
- Start date
Currently reading:
Technical multiwagon rear bushes
dinosaurcar
New member
Hi Having just replaced mine on my multiwagon used a very large three legged puller,
a bolt with centre drilling to centralise puller and substantial washers large enough
to meet the outside of the bush.used the same to push out centre of old bushes once cut.very importantly you must insert the bushes with the elongated centre section horisontally this stops excess travel back and forth.Lastly everybody suggests using grease or similar to fit, the best is good old fashioned hand soap and water, when done it will wash away.
Anyone got some detailed pictures and accurate dimensions of the old bush outer sleeve with centre removed? internal diameter, overall length, length with top hat etc
Why? Well a bit off the wall, but what about leaving the outer sleeve of the old bush in there, don't even go through the hassle of removing it
http://www.superflex.co.uk/fitting2.php
simply knock out and clean up the soft centre leaving the outer sleeve in place and then top hat type poly bush in either end, tube sleeve down the middle. How quick could that be to replace?
http://www.polybush.co.uk/polybush-grades
It can't go anywhere and couldn't possibly be worse than a fluid bearing with all the fluid gone. Transmitted noise might be worse or it might not be bad at all. You can decide what strength of material is used so you have choice on ride/noise
What is the bush top hat end plate with the three holes in for? Does it line up with anything on the car?
Why? Well a bit off the wall, but what about leaving the outer sleeve of the old bush in there, don't even go through the hassle of removing it
http://www.superflex.co.uk/fitting2.php
simply knock out and clean up the soft centre leaving the outer sleeve in place and then top hat type poly bush in either end, tube sleeve down the middle. How quick could that be to replace?
http://www.polybush.co.uk/polybush-grades
It can't go anywhere and couldn't possibly be worse than a fluid bearing with all the fluid gone. Transmitted noise might be worse or it might not be bad at all. You can decide what strength of material is used so you have choice on ride/noise
What is the bush top hat end plate with the three holes in for? Does it line up with anything on the car?
Last edited:
Yellowstilo
Can you please state the diameter and length of the three pegs and also what pitch circle diameter the hole centres are on for the pegs and are they drilled 120 Degrees apart.
I fancy making one up ready as my multiwagons done 75 k.
Also thinking of making a jacking tool although we have 50 Tonne press in workshop at work
- Joined
- May 5, 2006
- Messages
- 894
- Points
- 214
Yellowstilo
Can you please state the diameter and length of the three pegs and also what pitch circle diameter the hole centres are on for the pegs and are they drilled 120 Degrees apart.
I fancy making one up ready as my multiwagons done 75 k.
Also thinking of making a jacking tool although we have 50 Tonne press in workshop at work
diameter of pegs : 10 mm
length of pegs: 19mm + mounting depth (9-10 mm)
circle diameter: 67 mm
attention: the pegs are mounted slightly asymetrical, fit 1 peg and then use the bush for locating the other two pins.
good luck!
Hi all,
I am in the process of making a tool to remove and it won't be disimilar to the "klann" one . The klann will be about 1k, like roy i am awaiting a reply from ref the price.
Now what i need is a gash bush anyone got one?
Once i have got this sorted i will make them at cost.
Once the design is sorted i should be able to churn them out ( all thanks to CNC :slayer !
Cheers for now
kev Walker
I am in the process of making a tool to remove and it won't be disimilar to the "klann" one . The klann will be about 1k, like roy i am awaiting a reply from ref the price.
Now what i need is a gash bush anyone got one?
Once i have got this sorted i will make them at cost.
Once the design is sorted i should be able to churn them out ( all thanks to CNC :slayer
!Cheers for now
kev Walker
Thanks for info Yellowstilo.
I have had a look at previous posts regarding bush replacement and problems encountered, I suspect the new bushes are slightly oversized in comparison with the original bushes as when the original bushes are pressed out a small amount of material will be chaffed out of the bore that the bush locates in.
I,ve had a look at my old Engineering Zeus tables and a press fit for the bush diameter should be about 0.025 to 0.05 mm interference fit.
I personally dont feel that polly/rubber bushes on two pivot points on the rear beam would be substansial enough to support it..its not a multi link suspension set up with multiple points like some with also an ARB and drop links for extra support..I certainly would not advise someone to go and try it..if someone was brave enough to do it and made a report that it does the job and passed and MOT with the modification done then I would say well done
we can now move on from the headache..
With a bolt going right through the carrier then it can't go anywhere. The worst it could possibly get if it totally broke up is still better than when a fluid mount goes and how bad is that? Not bad at all, as people don't even realise it's gone with a "What's that banging at the back"
If it's strong enough for Landrovers, Porsche (shown above) and Mondeos then it wont have any problems with a Stilo back end
To not have to remove the rear beam would make it a one hour job.
MOT would have no trouble with that. No play? No leaks? Pass every time
Need some pictures and dimensions from an old bush sleeve
I,ve had a look at my old Engineering Zeus tables and a press fit for the bush diameter should be about 0.025 to 0.05 mm interference fit.
Yes, to have a 0.15mm to 0.2mm interference fit as the new replacement bushes have is ludicrous and off the charts
Last edited:
Ok its used by land rover etc but they are designed to use the application where as the stilo is not?
Do you feel the the geometry of the rear wheels would still be within fiat specs after the modification and how do you feel tyre ware would be affected and tracking issues..? I and no doubt you can remember many an old mini that crabbed down the road with and incorrect fitting of the rear sub frame and radius arms and how they were affected..do you feel confidant that the modification would take the load under all circumstances such as a full passenger load and boot and towing ?..remember the multi wagon has a much heavier back end to start with than any of the hatch backs ..and then there is also the moral implication if anything did actually go t*ts up and a family member or friend got killed as a consequence of a modification on a car that wasnt designed that way in the first place..I know to attach an axle I built many a chassis and frame of a single seater auto grass racing cars years ago and we did some weird and wonderful things back then but this is new territory when it comes to the stilo ..I dont think the Greek lads have even done this one and they have a good track record when it comes to modifying the stilo..maybe you should be the test bed for this one.I think I picked up that your rear bushes are on the way out..I look forward to seeing the result if you can do it then as I said I woud be the first to give the person a pat on the back..
Do you feel the the geometry of the rear wheels would still be within fiat specs after the modification and how do you feel tyre ware would be affected and tracking issues..? I and no doubt you can remember many an old mini that crabbed down the road with and incorrect fitting of the rear sub frame and radius arms and how they were affected..do you feel confidant that the modification would take the load under all circumstances such as a full passenger load and boot and towing ?..remember the multi wagon has a much heavier back end to start with than any of the hatch backs ..and then there is also the moral implication if anything did actually go t*ts up and a family member or friend got killed as a consequence of a modification on a car that wasnt designed that way in the first place..I know to attach an axle I built many a chassis and frame of a single seater auto grass racing cars years ago and we did some weird and wonderful things back then but this is new territory when it comes to the stilo ..I dont think the Greek lads have even done this one and they have a good track record when it comes to modifying the stilo..maybe you should be the test bed for this one.I think I picked up that your rear bushes are on the way out..I look forward to seeing the result if you can do it then as I said I woud be the first to give the person a pat on the back..
Last edited:
Ok its used by land rovers etc but they are designed to use the application where as the stilo is not?
Your point was that you considered poly bushes wouldn't be substahtial enough but they obviously are if they're holding up Land Rovers, Audis and Porsches. I don't think a multiwagon is heavier than a Land Rover
Do you feel the the geometry of the rear wheels would still be within fiat specs after the modification and how do you feel tyre ware would be affected and tracking issues..?
Of course, geometery wouldn't be affected and niether would tyre wear. Nothing is being moved or realigned
I and no doubt you can remember many an old mini
I can and radius arms and subframes are nothing like a Stilo
At present my rear bushes are fine but I try to think ahead
Your point was that you considered poly bushes wouldn't be substahtial enough but they obviously are if they're holding up Land Rovers, Audis and Porsches. I don't think a multiwagon is heavier than a Land Rover
Do you feel the the geometry of the rear wheels would still be within fiat specs after the modification and how do you feel tyre ware would be affected and tracking issues..?
Of course, geometery wouldn't be affected and niether would tyre wear. Nothing is being moved or realigned
I and no doubt you can remember many an old mini
I can and radius arms and subframes are nothing like a Stilo
At present my rear bushes are fine but I try to think ahead
Last edited:
Ok its used by land rovers etc but they are designed to use the application where as the stilo is not?
Your point was that you considered poly bushes wouldn't be substahtial enough but they obviously are if they're holding up Land Rovers, Audis and Porsches. I don't think a multiwagon is heavier than a Land Rover
Do you feel the the geometry of the rear wheels would still be within fiat specs after the modification and how do you feel tyre ware would be affected and tracking issues..?
Of course, geometery wouldn't be affectedand niether would tyre wear Nothing is being movedor realigned
I and no doubt you can remember many an old mini
I can and radius arms and subframes are nothing like a Stilo
At present my rear bushes are fine but I try to think ahead
Thanks for your thoughts on that one Brian..
and to edit that post I wonder if a vehicle modified in this way would be subject to a VIC test not being a fiat application ie for safety reasons..? once again thanks for you insight into this..righto gotta be off got to get ready for my final radiotherapy treatment..deep joy..
Last edited:
i have too wondered would it be possible to use a poly bush in the rear of the stilo. i suspect my bushes are on their way out again after only 6months.
i would only try it myself if it was only me going to be in the stilo but with my 1 yrold daughter being in the car most of the time i wouldnt feel confident using my car as a test bed. though i do think polybushes are safe but its uncovered territory in the case of the stilo rear suspension
i would only try it myself if it was only me going to be in the stilo but with my 1 yrold daughter being in the car most of the time i wouldnt feel confident using my car as a test bed. though i do think polybushes are safe but its uncovered territory in the case of the stilo rear suspension
well klann have still not called me, im gona give it a couple more hours then ring again......
anyways, poly bushes, ive looked pretty hard at the rear assembly now, and i also think that poly bushes will now cause more problems.
the current bushes dont sit in the centre, the bushes are not squarely mounted to the car, so they twist at either end, with poly this would stop the twisting of the axle stopping it moving altogether, or it would shear the bolt altogether. unless there is a flexable alternative with metal insert - or a split design that is has chamfored edges on the inside to allow the twist i dont think it will work.
fiat designed a real micky mouse suspension set up on this car, tbh i think they would have been better just to put a ridgid axle with leaf springs like the doblo. or better yet why not independant....
roy
anyways, poly bushes, ive looked pretty hard at the rear assembly now, and i also think that poly bushes will now cause more problems.
the current bushes dont sit in the centre, the bushes are not squarely mounted to the car, so they twist at either end, with poly this would stop the twisting of the axle stopping it moving altogether, or it would shear the bolt altogether. unless there is a flexable alternative with metal insert - or a split design that is has chamfored edges on the inside to allow the twist i dont think it will work.
fiat designed a real micky mouse suspension set up on this car, tbh i think they would have been better just to put a ridgid axle with leaf springs like the doblo. or better yet why not independant....
roy
Facts are Roy the stilo suspension set up is a total disaster cheap to install with mega problems when it goes wrong and megabucks to repair..this is just one of the reasons I decided to say good bye to mine..I feel for the cost of the tool you could actually buy some second hand axles and refurb them yourself and supply them to a decent engineering company along with the bushes and get them pressed in professionally you might even have change from the estimated £500..then you will have some spare assembled axles for both the multi's..one that you might want to think about and consider..:chin:
Now hang on a sec here; for anyone who's driven a Stilo through some fast bends (and I'm talking driven fast :devil
then it should be clear the rear suspension is the best feature of the car.That massive torsion bar forces the car level once you get the weight on the rear (unlike that somewhat useless ARB on the front) and I'm pretty sure that oil filled bush does something towards it too (but don't ask me what exactly).
That would be the key reason I'd want to keep the bushes oem as you might get a nasty surprise otherwise and certainly can't see anything being improved.
Talking of suspension - checked the Stilo for flying ability last night but wasn't very successful
Hit a hump back bridge fairly fast but the car didn't want to take off at all with the tyres acting like they were glued to the road. I was actually quite impressed
Oh lordy time to put on my chain mail suit..Argo on the rampage..look out peeps..
I think I will do a little recap on how good or not the suspension system on the stilo actually is..its a bit :Offtopic: but what the hell we are all friend here so a little bit of debating did no one any harm..I think we can go back and onto many treads where people have continually had problems with the suspension set up on the stilo..just to name a few..groaning top mounts/snapping springs [my favourite that one] and iirc one member actually moaned that I had commented no less than 30+ times about it on one thread alone..what the hell the old fella has nothing better to do with his time these days than trying to put wrongs right.. and now to continue with the faults..none adjustable camber settings on the front legs resulting in worn tyres drop links that continually dont last as long as they should..fiat supposedly did look at the lower arm to help with tyre ware but this doent seem to have cured the fault which to this day is still with us..the rear suspension is an abortion and would definitely benefited from an independent system with an ARB the torsion or twist beam is an out dated piece of technology IMO but fiat use it because its cheap to produce has few moving parts and expensive to prepare for the common man with little or no mechanical knowledge..the only part of your post Jason I would agree with is the retaining of the original bushes..in fact I think that by changing the bushes over to a polly/rubber bush might actually deem the car illegal for road use due to the fact that you have taken away the OEM application completely and substituted it with a none specific part not applicable to the vehicle ..I found something that stated this before I went for my radio this morning but unfortunatly didnt save the info..anyway thats my three penny worth..so lets move on..and agree not to agree on this one..
Thsi does not apply to specific suspension modifications that has TUV approval such as coilovers and lowering springs and uprated shock..they are just bloomin stupid and not needed int he first place..:devil:
I think I will do a little recap on how good or not the suspension system on the stilo actually is..its a bit :Offtopic: but what the hell we are all friend here so a little bit of debating did no one any harm..I think we can go back and onto many treads where people have continually had problems with the suspension set up on the stilo..just to name a few..groaning top mounts/snapping springs [my favourite that one] and iirc one member actually moaned that I had commented no less than 30+ times about it on one thread alone
..what the hell the old fella has nothing better to do with his time these days than trying to put wrongs right.. and now to continue with the faults..none adjustable camber settings on the front legs resulting in worn tyres drop links that continually dont last as long as they should..fiat supposedly did look at the lower arm to help with tyre ware but this doent seem to have cured the fault which to this day is still with us..the rear suspension is an abortion and would definitely benefited from an independent system with an ARB the torsion or twist beam is an out dated piece of technology IMO but fiat use it because its cheap to produce has few moving parts and expensive to prepare for the common man with little or no mechanical knowledge..the only part of your post Jason I would agree with is the retaining of the original bushes..in fact I think that by changing the bushes over to a polly/rubber bush might actually deem the car illegal for road use due to the fact that you have taken away the OEM application completely and substituted it with a none specific part not applicable to the vehicle ..I found something that stated this before I went for my radio this morning but unfortunatly didnt save the info..anyway thats my three penny worth..so lets move on..and agree not to agree on this one..Thsi does not apply to specific suspension modifications that has TUV approval such as coilovers and lowering springs and uprated shock..they are just bloomin stupid and not needed int he first place..:devil:
Lol,
I think your the first person I have even know to say that...
As much as I love my Stilo every Fiat and Alfa I have owned goes through a bend better than my Stilo does. The rear for me is either all or nothing, no feel or warning.
I prefered my old Bravo setup to that of the Stilo.. seemed like a step backwards.
I think your the first person I have even know to say that...
As much as I love my Stilo every Fiat and Alfa I have owned goes through a bend better than my Stilo does. The rear for me is either all or nothing, no feel or warning.
I prefered my old Bravo setup to that of the Stilo.. seemed like a step backwards.
