General Main Pulley Bolt Removal - Twin Air

[TTR]

Eh up all,

So - went for a start and car threw a Crank Sensor Position fault and will not start .

My inclination is that there is a correlation between the pulley and /or the chain. I therefore must have placed the pulley on incorrectly as I did not mark it up when I removed it, - this is a hard swallow!!!!

So I’m now guessing I need to re align the timing so it’s correct and to do this properly need an alignment tool.

I have ruled out any other issues as car was perfect before I commenced this.

It therefore in my opinion is the fact that the timing must have moved and or the pulley must play a part in this or it plays no part and it’s simply the timing that’s moved and once corrected will be irrelevant how i position the pulley back on.

That said I will be orienting the pulley so the lock out holes are aligned with the block when re fitting!!!

Any thoughts welcome as I try and resolve my monumental F88k Up

 

[jrkitching]

It therefore in my opinion is the fact that the timing must have moved

I don't see how anything you've done could have affected the relationship between the camshaft and crankshaft; it seems to me that it's just a question of the ECU not being able to accurately determine the position of the crankshaft.

Hard to tell from the italian video, but I'm wondering if the pulley has anything to do with the crankshaft position sensor? I can't think of any other reason why its position would matter.

Go back and watch the video from about 3:15 and watch the part when the pulley is first removed.

Looks to me like there is a hole in the crankcase which lines up with a hole in the pulley; I'm wondering if you're supposed to locate it using some sort of dowel-like tool.

Where is the crank position sensor on this engine? If it's anywhere near the pulley, is there a magnet embedded in the pulley which triggers it??

You could try taking off the pulley and running something made of steel around it to feel for an embedded magnet.

I really feel for you on this one; no matter how skilful you are, working when you don't have access to any kind of documentation is a nightmare.

And I've said this before, but this is poor design; if the rotational positioning of the pulley is significant, it should have been keyed to the shaft.

 

[TTR]

I don't see how anything you've done could have affected the relationship between the camshaft and crankshaft; it seems to me that it's just a question of the ECU not being able to accurately determine the position of the crankshaft.


Go back and watch the video from about 3:15 and watch the part when the pulley is first removed.

Looks to me like there is a hole in the crankcase which lines up with a hole in the pulley; I'm wondering if you're supposed to locate it using some sort of dowel-like tool.

Where is the crank position sensor on this engine? If it's anywhere near the pulley, is there a magnet embedded in the pulley which triggers it??

You could try taking off the pulley and running something made of steel around it to feel for an embedded magnet.

I really feel for you on this one; no matter how skilful you are, working when you don't have access to any kind of documentation is a nightmare.

And I've said this before, but this is poor design; if the rotational positioning of the pulley is significant, it should have been keyed to the shaft.

 

[TTR]

Ehbup

I’m perplexed too.

It must be I’ve moved the position of the timing in relation to the pulley!

I’ve not had the chain off so common sense says it cannot have adjusted anything mechanically in the engine.

The sensor is at top of engine . No where near the pulley.

The alignment you refer to is what I’m referencing- that’s the bit I cocked up on by not aligning!!!!! Therefore cannot relocate pulley in same position. I intend to put it back in there but I’m assuming I need to be align timing to something.

Would help if I spoke Italian rather than Google translate!!!!

Why it matters being aligned somehow is beyond me but it must or at least that’s the thought process I’m following

I cannot think of anything else.

Will see if I can detect a magnet in pulley - nothing obvious plus unless sensor is near it it can’t have any effect- or can it !!!!

Keep all thought coming the answer will be somewhere

Cheers all

 

[jrkitching]

The alignment you refer to is what I’m referencing- that’s the bit I cocked up on by not aligning

Yes, you're quite correct. The crankshaft has to be positioned in the right place before lining up the holes, and right now, we don't even know what that position is supposed to be.

Would help if I spoke Italian

This is a forum for italian cars, surely there must be someone here who speaks the language!

 

[jrkitching]

What's this part? From the video, it would appear to be positioned very close to the pulley once it's replaced. And, there's a ring of teeth around the periphery of the pulley, in just the right place to align with this.

I'm thinking this looks a lot like a Hall sensor. Watch this video, especially the part from about 3.00 onwards.

Is there a permanent magnet in the black (arrowed) section?

 

[TTR]

Eh up

Bloody good spot - I never associated a feed from here.

Let me check

 

[Panda IIs]

Eh up

vic20 - fair point and from what I can gather no relationship between the pulley and serp belt , plus it’s chain driven timing on the TA so by removing the water pump I cannot figure any mechanical relationship that would influence timing or position of the pulley wheel.

panda11 - agree with you on this and i think it’s a generic pulley they use

on that basis I rebuilt part tonight- will finish tomorrow night and fill with coolant leave it overnight again to test for leaks after running it up to temp.

can’t say I’m over confident but equally not enough to stop me cracking on.

will keep this thread updated - cheers for all input it helps when unraveling my thoughts and making informed decisions

So I think I've learned something for sure. From the video (Italian) The commentary at around 8:05 "We put our pulley in position and always make our hole on the pulley coincide with the seat" courtesy Google. So the crankshaft locking key through the pulley hole and into the casting (at 6 o'clock).

This is the crankshaft locking key that the guy was struggling with in the other video I referenced above (essentially a piece of round bar)

I guess if you use this to lock the pulley to remove it then it goes back in the same place. Unfortunately I think you said you manged without this and of course have since cranked the engine. So now we need to find TDC I guess..? I'd expect there to be some timing marks associated with the cam chain etc but have never had to explore this on my TA.

 

[TTR]

Eh Up Panda 11

Your bang on, I got that engrossed on getting the pulley nut of I did not lock out !!!! My fault and never done that before

Agree I can see how the pulley needs to align

My issue is finding the correct position for TDC, as you state, I’m fearful I need to attack is as if I were changing the chain now

Still looking to see what I can do / advise I can get on this to recover the situation

 

[jrkitching]

I guess if you use this to lock the pulley to remove it then it goes back in the same place.

Only if the crankshaft doesn't move between removing the pulley and replacing it.

I guess to do this job properly you first need to align the hole in the pulley with the hole in the crankcase, then lock the crankshaft, and only then remove the pulley.

I don't see how you could otherwise undo the nut without risking the crankshaft turning, and then the alignment is lost.

My issue is finding the correct position for TDC

Do we know for sure that the crankshaft is actually supposed to be at TDC when the holes line up? Seems to me that we just assuming that is the correct alignment. There are still too many unknowns - we don't know for sure that the engine needs to be at TDC for this.

If I were designing a toolset for changing the timing chain, I'd actually want to lock the crank with the pistons at the bottom of the stroke to remove any risk of valve contact if the camshaft moves during the setting procedure (or mid stroke on a 4cyl engine). So I'd definitely not assume the timing tools lock the crank at TDC.

I’m fearful I need to attack is as if I were changing the chain now

Well, a timing tool set can be had for a reasonable price, though you likely only need the crankshaft locking tool. In your position, I'd like to have someone with a known good TA put the crankshaft locking tool in place, and check that the hole in the pulley actually does align with the hole in the crankcase. If it does, then you have a way forward.

What I'd do now is to get a crankshaft locking tool, then send it to someone with an untouched TA to check the alignment of the pulley with the crankshaft locked using that tool. If that checks out, then put the crank locking tool on your own engine to position the crank, and refit the pulley with the holes in alignment.

Belt & braces perhaps, but this isn't the time to jump out of the frying pan until you know exactly where you're going to land. Whatever, don't do anything which risks disturbing the crankshaft/camshaft alignment; you already know that's correct.

My other thought is that replacing a water pump really shouldn't be this hard; whatever were Fiat thinking when they designed this.

I can see many independent garages getting into exactly this situation.

 

[TTR]

Eh up jrkitching

Without doubt this is my b8lls up

I’ve worked on cars 35 years and never cocked up this bad!

I’m at a loss currently with next steps to take, get your points and there logical - how and who I find with a TA to do checks and then transfer knowledge to mine is one question

I agree if I’d have locked out pulley none of this would happen and it’s a relatively simple job.

How I manage to resolve this as yet cannot say

Fallback position is trailer it to Fiat main dealer and get my ar8e reamed on costs !!!

I’m not done just yet though

 

[jrkitching]

Without doubt this is my b8lls up

I’ve worked on cars 35 years and never cocked up this bad!

Don't be too hard on yourself. I'm thinking I could easily have done the same thing myself.

Generally just about any round component where the angular position is critical will be keyed to its shaft. If Fiat had done this, all this would have been a non-event.

Fallback position is trailer it to Fiat main dealer and get my ar8e reamed on costs

Collectively we ought to be able to do better than that!

At this point it would be helpful if we could find someone here with a TA who can check the pulley alignment with a crank locking tool in position. I'd volunteer myself, but I don't have access to a car with a TA engine.

 

[Panda IIs]

Eh up jrkitching

Without doubt this is my b8lls up

I’ve worked on cars 35 years and never cocked up this bad!

I’m at a loss currently with next steps to take, get your points and there logical - how and who I find with a TA to do checks and then transfer knowledge to mine is one question

I agree if I’d have locked out pulley none of this would happen and it’s a relatively simple job.

How I manage to resolve this as yet cannot say

Fallback position is trailer it to Fiat main dealer and get my ar8e reamed on costs !!!

I’m not done just yet though

So we need to find the correct relative position of the crank to the pulley. The procedure to dismantle is (it appears) to have the drilled hole in the pulley aligned to the boss in the casting via a rod (which doesn't appear to be that precise a fit in the video). You then don't move the crankshaft (in an ideal world).

Now as the engine is a 360 degree twin https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...1FC04A31E8C9EC101E161FC04A31E8C9&&FORM=GVRPTV It seems to me that you simply need to get the pistons to TDC (as you proposed by removing a plug) the simplicity of the 360 twin is that you don't need to know which is actually at TDC on the compression stroke. Now at TDC you position the the pulley with the locking hole located with a suitable rod (drill bit of right size) and tighten everything up.

Now I am making the reasonable assumption that the correct alignment of the pulley is at TDC (anything else would surely be madness or at least a FIAT quirk too far?). I think (as you have discovered) the engine management will tell you if this is the case. Another thing I don't know is whether you will have to clear the error you already have via the OBDII port - I am thinking not but with my fingers crossed for you.

I originally took this screenshot from the rendered video to ask if your pulley has the same gap in the notches as is suggested by the video but it has no real relevance and the rendered video may not be accurate (although it does have the alignment hole!). My guess is that if it does, that gap (or some other feature) is adjacent to the sensor that @jrkitching identified, when the hole in the pulley is at 6 o'clock. I think the sensor is around the 8 o'clock position. If this is the case then I am further encouraged to think that alignment is at TDC since in my head that's what I would want to know

 

[The Panda Nut]

I don't see how anything you've done could have affected the relationship between the camshaft and crankshaft; it seems to me that it's just a question of the ECU not being able to accurately determine the position of the crankshaft.


Go back and watch the video from about 3:15 and watch the part when the pulley is first removed.

Looks to me like there is a hole in the crankcase which lines up with a hole in the pulley; I'm wondering if you're supposed to locate it using some sort of dowel-like tool.

Where is the crank position sensor on this engine? If it's anywhere near the pulley, is there a magnet embedded in the pulley which triggers it??

You could try taking off the pulley and running something made of steel around it to feel for an embedded magnet.

I really feel for you on this one; no matter how skilful you are, working when you don't have access to any kind of documentation is a nightmare.

And I've said this before, but this is poor design; if the rotational positioning of the pulley is significant, it should have been keyed to the shaft.

Unless there is a magnet or something in the pukkey that affectsthe position sensor. But I agree this doesnt make logical sense.

So we need to find the correct relative position of the crank to the pulley. The procedure to dismantle is (it appears) to have the drilled hole in the pulley aligned to the boss in the casting via a rod (which doesn't appear to be that precise a fit in the video). You then don't move the crankshaft (in an ideal world).

Now as the engine is a 360 degree twin https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...1FC04A31E8C9EC101E161FC04A31E8C9&&FORM=GVRPTV It seems to me that you simply need to get the pistons to TDC (as you proposed by removing a plug) the simplicity of the 360 twin is that you don't need to know which is actually at TDC on the compression stroke. Now at TDC you position the the pulley with the locking hole located with a suitable rod (drill bit of right size) and tighten everything up.

Now I am making the reasonable assumption that the correct alignment of the pulley is at TDC (anything else would surely be madness or at least a FIAT quirk too far?). I think (as you have discovered) the engine management will tell you if this is the case. Another thing I don't know is whether you will have to clear the error you already have via the OBDII port - I am thinking not but with my fingers crossed for you.

I originally took this screenshot from the rendered video to ask if your pulley has the same gap in the notches as is suggested by the video but it has no real relevance and the rendered video may not be accurate (although it does have the alignment hole!). My guess is that if it does, that gap (or some other feature) is adjacent to the sensor that @jrkitching identified, when the hole in the pulley is at 6 o'clock. I think the sensor is around the 8 o'clock position. If this is the case then I am further encouraged to think that alignment is at TDC since in my head that's what I would want to know


View attachment 434075

Sound thinking

 

[jrkitching]

Now I am making the reasonable assumption that the correct alignment of the pulley is at TDC

I don't see how we have any basis for making that assumption. Right now, we simply don't know what position the crankshaft is supposed to be in when the hole in the pulley lines up with the hole in the crankcase.

One could equally assume that the holes should align when the crankshaft is locked using the factory locking tool used when carrying out the procedure for fitting the timing chain. Now that position is most unlikely to be TDC; that is the last place you want to lock the pistons when changing the chain.

IIRC fitting the locking tool to the 4 cylinder engines positions all four pistons mid bore, but I've no idea what the piston position is when it's fitted to the 2cyl TA. Logically it would put both pistons at BDC to keep them completely out of the way of any opened valves.

If someone could fit a locking tool to a known good engine and observe the pulley alignment and piston positioning, that would give us a proper basis for working out where to set the crankshaft to correctly align the pulley.

Take a look at this timing tool set - it appears to include a tool for aligning the crankshaft pulley.

If it were my car, I'd be buying this tool before messing any further with it.

 

[Panda IIs]

I don't see how we have any basis for making that assumption. Right now, we simply don't know what position the crankshaft is supposed to be in when the hole in the pulley lines up with the hole in the crankcase.

One could equally assume that the holes should align when the crankshaft is locked using the factory locking tool used when carrying out the procedure for fitting the timing chain. Now that position is most unlikely to be TDC; that is the last place you want to lock the pistons when changing the chain.

IIRC fitting the locking tool to the 4 cylinder engines positions all four pistons mid bore, but I've no idea what the piston position is when it's fitted to the 2cyl TA.

If someone could fit a locking tool to a known good engine and observe the pulley alignment and piston positioning, that would give us a proper basis for working out where to set the crankshaft to correctly align the pulley.

I did qualify my assumption; I agree that it could be the crank position sensor is timed in an alternate position but I think that might be odd? Personally I would expect a crank sensor to be signalling TDC but of course it could be timed anywhere and the ECU programmed accordingly. Does anyone have knowledge of typical crank sensor timing?

What we do know is that the valve timing remains accurate so "can do no harm"! I do have a concern about whether the error reported will clear though.

I have a TA but am away from it at present; in the interests of discovery I will try to explore the relationship between pulley and TDC at the weekend (or I might just ring Jamie Porter tomorrow!).

 

[jrkitching]

I have a TA but am away from it at present; in the interests of discovery I will try to explore the relationship between pulley and TDC at the weekend

That'd be helpful; right now we're all guessing about things it would be most useful to have confirmed, or otherwise.

I'm thinking that if the OP were to buy the timing tool set in my previous post and have it delivered to you, you could use it to verify that the pulley lines up correctly with the crank locking components and pulley pin fitted, and then send it on to him so that he can use it to reset his crankshaft and refit the pulley. That's the best plan I can come up with at the moment - and a heck of a lot cheaper than trailering the car to a Fiat dealer!

I do have a concern about whether the error reported will clear though.

Once everything is properly aligned, it might just resolve itself, perhaps after some specified number of restarts. If it doesn't, then I'd expect MES would be able to clear the reported error.

As you say, the valve timing remains accurate, so this can't have caused any permanent damage.

 

[Panda IIs]

That'd be helpful; right now we're all guessing about things it would be most useful to have confirmed, or otherwise.

I'm thinking that if the OP were to buy the timing tool set in my previous post and have it delivered to you, you could use it to verify that the pulley lines up correctly with the crank locking components and pulley pin fitted, and then send it on to him so that he can use it to reset his crankshaft and refit the pulley. That's the best plan I can come up with at the moment - and a heck of a lot cheaper than trailering the car to a Fiat dealer!

Sorry, as much as I am interested, I'm not going in that "deep" as locking camshaft positions (or even inspecting them) I think will require breaking some currently not leaking gasketed joints! I will make the time to remove sparkplugs and determine TDC and then check main pulley position.

 

[jrkitching]

Sorry, as much as I am interested, I'm not going in that "deep" as locking camshaft positions (or even inspecting them) I think will require breaking some currently not leaking gasketed joints!

That's perfectly understandable, and I wouldn't break a sealed joint without good reason either.

We don't need to know anything about camshaft position to fix this one; it's just about the relationship between the crank and the crank pulley, so all we have to do is fit the crank locking tool and see if the pulley positioning pin slips through the hole into the crankcase. Sadly I'm not familiar with this engine, so don't know how much dismantling is needed to do this.

I'd also be interested to know what the piston positions are with the crank locking tool in place, but this is just my own curiosity.

 

[TTR]

Eh up both

Having had a

Firstly already ordered a kit as per the one suggested - should be here tomorrow

Now I’m thinking the relationship between the crankcase and pulley is by separates sensors , that must be correctly aligned Hence fault noted at crank senso.

I’ve not taken the chain off - key point Cannot be any engine damage Yet !!!

by using said tool which I understand locates and looks the cam

I am hopeful I can then figure out the position of the pulley, it should be aligned at some stage

I can manually crank the engine with both plugs removed after to sense check before a full start

if not try again it must orientate at some point in the process that’s my logic anyway

appreciate the inputs and thoughts and I would not expect anyone to remove anything on their motor to assist on this one - it’s my ba88s up

cheers for all the ongoing help will keep this thread updated