Technical Is this selespeed pump fits fiat panda (2007 Model)?

[PandaUser]

Hi, According to my garage selespeed pump is dead, and need to be replaced.

I found this pump on ebay (can't attach link since I'm new):
* 100% GENUINE * ALFA ROMEO 147 156 GT SELESPEED New Gearbox Pump 51736315

And its look the same to the one located on my panda (or at least I think so):

Fiat product number for selespeed pump is 71747939.

Is it fits fiat panda? Can it maybe operate differently because it's alpha's?

Thanks.

 

[irc]

Hi
The Selespeed pump for the Alfa 147/156 and the Dualogic pump for the 169 Panda are different. The motor part is interchangeable, by separating the motor from the pump head, and swapping them over. As long as the motor is the same on this one then it should be fine. However, the part numbers are not the same as the ones I have on my parts list, so I can't confirm it completely. My Alfa guru is unfortunately unavailable at the moment, so I can't check with him.

Before you buy, what are the symptoms?
If the motor had "gone lazy" then a new pump is probably the way to go... does it all suddenly work properly if you tap the motor?
They rarely fail completely without symptoms, whereas the relay does, as does the wiring.

 

[portland_bill]

A different part number would suggest a different spec. Although, Fiat may well just use another number for the different vehicle, but doubtful as that would duplicate stock and cost.
Differences might be in mounting, or pressures, so difficult to know what to do unless you can physically compare them.

71747939 now appears to be replaced by 71769597. A search for that might be more successful.

 

[PandaUser]

Hi
The Selespeed pump for the Alfa 147/156 and the Dualogic pump for the 169 Panda are different. The motor part is interchangeable, by separating the motor from the pump head, and swapping them over. As long as the motor is the same on this one then it should be fine. However, the part numbers are not the same as the ones I have on my parts list, so I can't confirm it completely. My Alfa guru is unfortunately unavailable at the moment, so I can't check with him.

Before you buy, what are the symptoms?
If the motor had "gone lazy" then a new pump is probably the way to go... does it all suddenly work properly if you tap the motor?
They rarely fail completely without symptoms, whereas the relay does, as does the wiring.

Thanks for your answer. You can find the symptoms in the other thread I've opened in tech talk (again, can't attach link )

The seller said 500 owners buy this pump and use it.

Physically I think that they are identical (outside of course).. or I'm not notice what I suppose to.

 

[irc]

Had a look at your post in Tech Talk.
I'd be surprised if swapping the pump will fix it. It sounds like a seal in the actuator has gone. The pump may also now be knackered, but I've never seen one cause fluid leak. If it did, it would have to be in the pump head, which you would be re-using, so it would not fix the leak problem anyway.
It's possible that the leak has caused the motor to short out internally, resulting in the overvoltage, and killing the motor, but I think the leak is probably not the pump head anyway.

I think the part number is for the Alfa complete pump unit, and had been superseded in the Alfa parts list. As far as I can tell, the motor remains functionally the same, and if it is definitely one that people have been using on the 500 then it should work. However, I am not convinced it will fix your problem.
Were the garage able to find the original source of the leak?
Some of the seals can be replaced easily, as can the fluid tank, and the pipe connecting it. Others need a bit more knowledge and are more of a pain to fix, and a full strip down and rebuild may be the best way.
Where are you based?

 

[PandaUser]

Had a look at your post in Tech Talk.
I'd be surprised if swapping the pump will fix it. It sounds like a seal in the actuator has gone. The pump may also now be knackered, but I've never seen one cause fluid leak. If it did, it would have to be in the pump head, which you would be re-using, so it would not fix the leak problem anyway.
It's possible that the leak has caused the motor to short out internally, resulting in the overvoltage, and killing the motor, but I think the leak is probably not the pump head anyway.

I think the part number is for the Alfa complete pump unit, and had been superseded in the Alfa parts list. As far as I can tell, the motor remains functionally the same, and if it is definitely one that people have been using on the 500 then it should work. However, I am not convinced it will fix your problem.
Were the garage able to find the original source of the leak?
Some of the seals can be replaced easily, as can the fluid tank, and the pipe connecting it. Others need a bit more knowledge and are more of a pain to fix, and a full strip down and rebuild may be the best way.
Where are you based?

Hi, Thanks for your informative answer. As I said in the tech talk forum, I did managed to limit the leak to the minimum by replacing the defective car battery. I assumes that the robot unit got bad voltage when using car starter (switch) and therefore more liquid got out of the system. After replacing car battery the situation got much better, no leak at all somtimes as I said and I was very happy about it - I thought that I will be able to live with the minimum leak. The problem got worse when I put too much fluid to the system (I didn't know that opening car door affects amount in tank fluid) and now I have another problem - the pump is dead (Do you think I can do something simple to revive it?). I still think that putting too much fluid shouldn't end up like this, which make me come into conclusion that it was bad shaped too. But what is the probability that both are faulty?

Can I be sure that replacing the pump will fix current problem (car will work again with minimum fluid leak?)

I'm based in Israel. Unfortunately the parts are very expensive - new complete robot will cost me around 2500$ or more, which is almost the car price. My garage don't fix faulty robot - and a garage that does take minimum of 900$ and can be more than that.

Used robot is the best option?

 

[irc]

PandaUser it's nearly impossible to diagnose remotely, but as far as I can tell:
The original problem was a leak, which you were getting round by topping up the reservoir.
During one of these top-ups the reservoir was overfilled, and there was some spillage.
Now the pump is not operating at all.

My thoughts:
Changing the pump may just be a waste of money, as you can't really tell what (if anything) else has also failed.

Changing the car battery should have made no difference to the leak.

Have you been topping up with genuine Selespeed fluid (CS Speed fluid is the recommended fluid in the UK, and it's not cheap - up to £20/litre). Anything else will probably cause other seals to fail too. I have seen the results of someone using gearbox oil in the Dualogic reservoir, and it wasn't pretty. The actuator was pretty much trashed beyond repair.

In normal operation the pump is activated when the driver's door is opened, and then whenever it is needed to maintain sufficient pressure for the actuator to operate.
If the system is operating properly the amount of fluid in the reservoir should go down slightly when the pump starts, not up, as the accumulator fills with fluid. In total, the amount of fluid in the system is only about 600ml.

Any leak is bad news, and should be dealt with as soon as possible to avoid further damage. The actuator does not have much tolerance of grit or anything else which could get in during frequent top-ups. And the fluid is expensive!

It is possible that fluid has found its way into the motor, and it is also possible that disassembly, cleaning and reassembly could revive it, but I doubt it.

It is possible to replace the brushes in the motor, but this is generally only a good idea on motors which are otherwise perfect. Any contamination or signs of arcing inside the motor usually mean a replacement is the best option.

From your description, I suspect that the simplest option would be a refurbished actuator, or repair of your unit by someone who has the skills and the tools.

An Alfa Romeo independent would almost certainly be able to sort it out, but I don't know how common they are in Israel. In general, UK Fiat dealers and independents don't seem to do repairs on the actuator - they just replace as a unit.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[PandaUser]

PandaUser it's nearly impossible to diagnose remotely, but as far as I can tell:
The original problem was a leak, which you were getting round by topping up the reservoir.
During one of these top-ups the reservoir was overfilled, and there was some spillage.
Now the pump is not operating at all.

My thoughts:
Changing the pump may just be a waste of money, as you can't really tell what (if anything) else has also failed.

Changing the car battery should have made no difference to the leak.

Have you been topping up with genuine Selespeed fluid (CS Speed fluid is the recommended fluid in the UK, and it's not cheap - up to £20/litre). Anything else will probably cause other seals to fail too. I have seen the results of someone using gearbox oil in the Dualogic reservoir, and it wasn't pretty. The actuator was pretty much trashed beyond repair.

In normal operation the pump is activated when the driver's door is opened, and then whenever it is needed to maintain sufficient pressure for the actuator to operate.
If the system is operating properly the amount of fluid in the reservoir should go down slightly when the pump starts, not up, as the accumulator fills with fluid. In total, the amount of fluid in the system is only about 600ml.

Any leak is bad news, and should be dealt with as soon as possible to avoid further damage. The actuator does not have much tolerance of grit or anything else which could get in during frequent top-ups. And the fluid is expensive!

It is possible that fluid has found its way into the motor, and it is also possible that disassembly, cleaning and reassembly could revive it, but I doubt it.

It is possible to replace the brushes in the motor, but this is generally only a good idea on motors which are otherwise perfect. Any contamination or signs of arcing inside the motor usually mean a replacement is the best option.

From your description, I suspect that the simplest option would be a refurbished actuator, or repair of your unit by someone who has the skills and the tools.

An Alfa Romeo independent would almost certainly be able to sort it out, but I don't know how common they are in Israel. In general, UK Fiat dealers and independents don't seem to do repairs on the actuator - they just replace as a unit.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Hi, I know it's sound weird, but in my case the battery was not only weak but maybe defective also (car radio didn't work among other). I was told by some garage that weak battery can cause problem like stuck on neutral on starting, but in my case it's improved the leak situation significantly - mainly because leak mainly (and maybe only) occured when starting (or turning off) the car. Apparently the battery affects the system at this stage.

I used tutela cs speed original fluid.

Thanks for you help, I will consider my options.

 

[DaveMcT]

I have no knowledge of Selespeed systems but have an engineering background.

A failing seal that's ok with the system at working pressure can leak when the pressure behind is low. Basically the internal pressure keeps the seal lips pressed into place. (this is common on brake system master cylinders)

On that basis, a weak battery could create a leakage situation by not allowing the pump to raise enough pressure. However motors can fail when run under voltage because they will pull more current to compensate and that can burn the windings.

I believe your mechanic is blaming the pump because it fails to provide enough pressure, but it might actually be ok. You need to get the leak repaired with new seal and associated parts and then see if the pump has really failed.