Is the proposed Diesel scrapage scheme a Con?

[AndyRKett]

So apparently 1400kg versus 10kg + of pm matter released at street level where people are likely to breathe it. Quite literally choose your poison..

Don't forget petrol cars still produce particular matter and NOX, just because diesels release more it doesn't mean petrol cars exhaust is spotlessly clean.

In essence if you removed all the diesel cars from the road, and it's safe to assume a fair amount of those would be replaced with petrol cars, out CO2 output will be the next thing we'll be getting fines for and Green Party members will be screaming "will someone think of the children" down a camera lens on the 6 o'clock news.

Petrol owners like to rubbish diesels but are oblivious to the problems their own cars pose and that is my issue here, I am not of any belief that my car is the cleanest on the road but my view is that no diesel car is any worse that it's direct petrol equivalent, they both pollute just in different ways, and no one is really saying what is worst in the long term.

 

[StevenRB45]

Don't forget petrol cars still produce particular matter and NOX, just because diesels release more it doesn't mean petrol cars exhaust is spotlessly clean.

In essence if you removed all the diesel cars from the road, and it's safe to assume a fair amount of those would be replaced with petrol cars, out CO2 output will be the next thing we'll be getting fines for and Green Party members will be screaming "will someone think of the children" down a camera lens on the 6 o'clock news.

Petrol owners like to rubbish diesels but are oblivious to the problems their own cars pose and that is my issue here, I am not of any belief that my car is the cleanest on the road but my view is that no diesel car is any worse that it's direct petrol equivalent, they both pollute just in different ways, and no one is really saying what is worst in the long term.

If I may go back to the original point of the thread (I know me heading back on topic! WTF) which was diesel scrappage for pre euro V cars isn't actually that bad an idea. Putting aside your personal preferences for a moment do you also have the "old TDI ahead" reflex? I.e. spot an old mondeo, or whatever ahead on the basis there is a good chance you are about to drive into a black cloud immediately hit air recirculation? The cars this will hit are the ones being run mot to mot on a shoe string, the cars where after 10 years the injectors are working with the precision of a B52, cars with no DPF (either by design or removed/gutted) the ones you really don't like being stuck behind.

If anything the scrappage scheme is a little harsh on the old petrols in that there were studies done that showed between Euro 1 and 4 no improvement occurred in diesel emissions in use while in the same period petrol emissions fell 96%. Incentivising people to get something else would seem sensible in the main though. They aren't putting guns to anyone's head to do so and it may well improve diesels reputation overall if there are less smog belchers around.

 

[Paddynabs]

Speaking as the owner of an old diesel which is run "MoT to Mot" (although I don't know what that actually means. I service the Multipla every year too!).

Where does the gov' think I'm going to get the money from? Going from a car that owes me nothing to £300-400/month on a new MPV? Athough as much as I love the old girl I'd quite like a decent new motor!

Depending on what you measure I think scrapping a car and building a new one must be worse for the environment than keeping an old car on the road.

Why do we only look at one measure? Last year it was CO2, this year it's NOX etc etc. At the end of the day everything we do/make is a pollutant somewhere along the line. Apart from our new nylon haired fact-sceptic American friend most of the planet agrees we are accelerating the damage we are doing. Titting around at the edges ain't changing anything.

The cynic in me says it's more to do with tax revenue than anything else.

 

[StevenRB45]

Speaking as the owner of an old diesel which is run "MoT to Mot" (although I don't know what that actually means. I service the Multipla every year too!).

Where does the gov' think I'm going to get the money from? Going from a car that owes me nothing to £300-400/month on a new MPV? Athough as much as I love the old girl I'd quite like a decent new motor!

Depending on what you measure I think scrapping a car and building a new one must be worse for the environment than keeping an old car on the road.

Why do we only look at one measure? Last year it was CO2, this year it's NOX etc etc. At the end of the day everything we do/make is a pollutant somewhere along the line. Apart from our new nylon haired fact-sceptic American friend most of the planet agrees we are accelerating the damage we are doing. Titting around at the edges ain't changing anything.

The cynic in me says it's more to do with tax revenue than anything else.

By mot to mot, I mean doing the bare minimum of garage work to pass, only fixing it when it literally won't move. Removing the DPF if it becomes blocked...cars like this wonderful local vectra.



Nothing of value would be lost if it was scrapped and it's clearly not well! Although I'm sure he has siiick remap cos no smoke no poke n that..

 

[AndyRKett]

There was some research done about 10 years ago that concluded that a V8 Range Rover was better for the environment than a small efficient new car, the main reason for this being the longevity of land rovers with a huge number of those produced still being on the road many many years later while the small efficient had a fair unimpressive shelf life before it was scrapped.

Because of the huge amount of pollution in producing a car from materials shipping and power needed the fact that the average land rover far outlives the average family hatch back means even with all the extra pollution the V8 produces it is still cleaner over the entire duration of its life. I have no idea if that is still the case but there is a lot to be said for unnecessarily scrapping otherwise perfectly serviceable vehicles. If Mr Vectra man gets a new car he's not going to suddenly start looking after it and if he's deactivated the DPF, blocked off the EGR valve and had it remapped then why isn't he going to do just that again with the new car?

Mean while in American https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

 

[StevenRB45]

There was some research done about 10 years ago that concluded that a V8 Range Rover was better for the environment than a small efficient new car, the main reason for this being the longevity of land rovers with a huge number of those produced still being on the road many many years later while the small efficient had a fair unimpressive shelf life before it was scrapped.

Because of the huge amount of pollution in producing a car from materials shipping and power needed the fact that the average land rover far outlives the average family hatch back means even with all the extra pollution the V8 produces it is still cleaner over the entire duration of its life. I have no idea if that is still the case but there is a lot to be said for unnecessarily scrapping otherwise perfectly serviceable vehicles. If Mr Vectra man gets a new car he's not going to suddenly start looking after it and if he's deactivated the DPF, blocked off the EGR valve and had it remapped then why isn't he going to do just that again with the new car?

Mean while in American https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

Land rovers and their famous longevity have nothing to do with this. The point is taken but realistically the cars that would be handed in will be the cars people were thinking about scrapping anyway. No one handed in an Aston Martin DB5 in the last scrappage scheme for a Hyundai I10. The cars that will go will be the ones that are one big bill from being scrapped anyway. At the end of the day these aren't cars built out of sheet aluminum and girders. A more representative example would be a work mate with an 07 vectra cdti, it got scrapped at 8, basically started rattling and not boosting properly. Taken apart, turbo bearings shot, dmf shot and as a result gearbox shot, scrap. Theoretically yes the diesel engine at the centre of all that was still good...but the repair bill meant it was never going to get a chance to make any more than the 100k miles it had on it.

The other option would be to add an emissions test on the mot...not a smoke test an emissions test similar to the one petrol cars must undergo. Whack a probe up the exhaust pipe if it's chucking out more than a certain threshold it's a fail. Of course roadside emissions testing would also be a good idea but that hasn't happened for 5 years...

It's also legal to buy guns in Asda and have multiple wives and drive with open beer in hand in certain areas of America.

 

[jrkitching]

Irrespective of anyone's personal views on this subject, I suspect it will not be long before any perceived advantage to owning a diesel powered passenger car is but a fading memory.

This article from today's papers gives a forewarning of what might be to come.

The writing is now written on the wall in letters ten feet high.

 

[varesecrazy]

I think I might buy a donkey at least there no road tax to pay?

if you're quick you can still have your pick of ZERO VED vehicles

 

[varesecrazy]

Irrespective of anyone's personal views on this subject, I suspect it will not be long before any perceived advantage to owning a diesel powered passenger car is but a fading memory.

This article from today's papers gives a forewarning of what might be to come.

The writing is now written on the wall in letters ten feet high.

diesel - dirty..?? it always has been

I cannot see a DIESEL scrappage scheme being worthwhile for the average motorist.. anytime soon.

as is often quoted..
if you can run it on a shoestring for 15 years , 400,000 miles, then it's actually cheaper in terms of the worlds resources than some sub 1000cc overworked modern engine , that is beyond economic repair at 6 years old / @100k miles,
DPF / camchain failures being all too common.

when I bought my last regular car in 2013 I had the option of;

1, plug-in Electric - well overpriced / only just practical..but cheap to run daily - big bills in future

2, 1.3 /small diesel - cheap to run daily - still expensive purchase,
big bills in future

3, small modern petrol -sub 1 litre, same VED as electric , no £7k batteries to change,
fair daily running costs.. but again will be DEAD in @100k miles

so "IF" I scrapped my old (semi classic )diesel what options "for practicality AND longevity have I got..??

 

[AndyRKett]

This article from today's papers gives a forewarning of what might be to come.

It doesn't give any forewarning that hasn't all ready been forewarned further up in this thread, clearly the daily mail where having a show news day, no immigrants to blame for something and no celebrities wearing good/bad dresses at some opening of something to report on.

What it does say is nearly half of new cars sold in the UK are diesel and that it would be short sighted to think pushing people into petrol cars would solve the problems given that diesel car emissions are about the same as petrol cars. Also they state that in London cars emit less NOx than building machinery or busses and trains.

In addition to this article; governments are put in power by the people and no government would stupid enough to alienate 50% of the motoring population by clamping down on diesels.

What papers like the daily mail do is ask a specific question of the MP in question then twist the answer and paraphrase to suggest that the politician had offered forward their ideas of the utopian future.
Things like banning driving on certain days has not worked in places like Mexico City where residents went out and bought a second car to drive on the alternate days (resulting in increased pollution).
We already have congestion zone charging in London and high emission diesels (commercial vehicles) are already penalised and banned under the rules.

They can encourage people to part with their older diesels with a scrapage scheme but drivers of older diesels don't do it for their own health, they do it because the cars just keep on running, costing very little and maintenance costs are a lot lower.
No one running a 2001 Mercedes diesel estate or land rover for example is going to be tricked into swapping their reliable old tractor in for a brand new petrol 1000cc shopping car

 

[StevenRB45]

They can encourage people to part with their older diesels with a scrapage scheme but drivers of older diesels don't do it for their own health, they do it because the cars just keep on running, costing very little and maintenance costs are a lot lower.
No one running a 2001 Mercedes diesel estate or land rover for example is going to be tricked into swapping their reliable old tractor in for a brand new petrol 1000cc shopping car

One thing that hasn't so much been mentioned in this thread is that they are also looking at beefing up emissions testing in the mot possibly as early as 2018. If scrappage is the carrot that may well be the stick.

At the minute all it tests is if while running lean (yes at max rpm but diesels are self regulating so it's not actually full throttle) it smokes a lot. The only way to fail is to have a catastrophically knackered car or forget to give it an Italian tune up on the way to the station.

If that's no longer the case and they do start checking for functionality of emissions control equipment and accuracy fuel injection then how many 150k mile diesels maintained on a shoe string are going to pass without work? It may well be it isn't a cheap option anymore.

I also get from the other side of it say to someone here's 2 grand to buy a new car, the next question is where does the 10-15-20 come from unless you are in the realms of a hopeless econobox.

Look at it this way, they've been giving 5 grand off electric cars for years but the only people who took them up on it would probably been early adopters anyway.

 

[puntofan01]

Out of interest, what is the age limit for buses in London? I'm sure I remember hearing somewhere that each legendary London taxi is removed from service as soon as it reaches 15 years old. I only ask, because whilst where I live, the vast majority of taxis are just normal cars which tend to get retired before reaching 10 years old, I do see a few ageing buses, often still being in service over 12 years old!

 

[varesecrazy]

Out of interest, what is the age limit for buses in London? I'm sure I remember hearing somewhere that each legendary London taxi is removed from service as soon as it reaches 15 years old. I only ask, because whilst where I live, the vast majority of taxis are just normal cars which tend to get retired before reaching 10 years old, I do see a few ageing buses, often still being in service over 12 years old!

London buses.. not sure there is one.. as the "Routemasters" certainly didn't stop 25 years ago..

there is plenty of early stage tech. out there attempting to make public transport GREEN,
but it all costs money..and the taxpayer isn't stumping up( in the numbers required)

there is a scheme trying to get an all electric bus for a small UK city..

using Hybrid to mean it'll run all day ..

but most GREEN buses are on a knife-edge for reliability.. and the operators just run on diesel rather than have it off the road ( not earning) too much.


around our way we've got an all-electric TNT parcel 7.5 tonner.., does "traffic free" areas all day.. but then does a 15 mile commute back to a depot..:chin:

 

[StevenRB45]

Out of interest, what is the age limit for buses in London? I'm sure I remember hearing somewhere that each legendary London taxi is removed from service as soon as it reaches 15 years old. I only ask, because whilst where I live, the vast majority of taxis are just normal cars which tend to get retired before reaching 10 years old, I do see a few ageing buses, often still being in service over 12 years old!

I would imagine mini cabs run until they drop/are uneconomic to repair, a local mini cabber has a 10 year old mondeo garden ornament, it was his car then the turbo blew so it was replaced with 5 year old Octavia.

Edit: appears 10 years is the limit actually having done a bit of google fu, so even if it hadn't died a smokey death it would have been end of life anyway.

12 year old bus is nothing, back when I was at secondary school (early 2000s) we had Leyland Atlanteans (a bus from the 1970s) as school buses. If anything buses are newer now than they ever were as its illegal to run a none accessible vehicle as a PSV and they only became main stream around the year 2000.

 

[puntofan01]

Again, out of interest, what was the air quality like back in the 70s and 80s?

 

[puntofan01]

I would imagine mini cabs run until they drop/are uneconomic to repair, a local mini cabber has a 10 year old mondeo garden ornament, it was his car then the turbo blew so it was replaced with 5 year old Octavia.

12 year old bus is nothing, back when I was at secondary school (early 2000s) we had Leyland Atlanteans (a bus from the 1970s) as school buses. If anything buses are newer now than they ever were as its illegal to run a none accessible vehicle as a PSV and they only became main stream around the year 2000.

I'd imagine that's the case as well. I left school in 2006, and back then, the company that held the contract for the school service was using early 80s (V and W suffix) Bristol VR double deckers for the school run! I was just thinking more in terms of the cleanliness of London bus emissions!

 

[AndyRKett]

Out of interest, what is the age limit for buses in London? I'm sure I remember hearing somewhere that each legendary London taxi is removed from service as soon as it reaches 15 years old. I only ask, because whilst where I live, the vast majority of taxis are just normal cars which tend to get retired before reaching 10 years old, I do see a few ageing buses, often still being in service over 12 years old!

London has the Low Emissions Zone, this done not restrict the age of vehicles, however if your vehicle doesn't meet emissions standards you will be charged £100-£200 per day that your vehicle is used in london. If you just drive into London without telling TfL then you will be hit with a huge penalty about £1000 for busses and lorries that don't meet standard. (I think now having a look on the TfL site that busses need to be 2006 or newer, with an exemption for historic vehicles)

There is no restriction on taxis as far as I know, however the proposed "ultra low emissions zone" will mean new black cabs will need to be electric"

Again, out of interest, what was the air quality like back in the 70s and 80s?

Some days walking in to school it was so dense you could cut the air with a knife.

The regular walk to school in the 1980s would fill your nostrils with unburnt petrol fumes from cars and the fumes they did emit were full of lead.

Catalyst were not required by law till the early 90s, and in the 80s very few cars were fuel injected. Lots of people driving on the choke on cold winter mornings and forgetting and leaving it out.

 

[StevenRB45]

Although in the 70s and 80s you do have to remember that cars were less common than they are now and heavy industry was far more common so in terms of percentage of emissions production cars are probably more important now than they were then.

That's not to say a carby, uncatalysed, petrol car was better it really wasn't (followed a X plate golf mk1 the other day it literally made my eyes water) but at least in local terms it paled into insignificance. Within 10 miles of where I am typing this in the 70s and 80s there was a coke works a coal fired power station and a steel works at the time also most houses had coal fires there were about half the number of cars on the road. Percentages change as time moves on.

 

[AndyRKett]

Within 10 miles of where I am typing this in the 70s and 80s there was a coke works a coal fired power station and a steel works at the time also most houses had coal fires there were about half the number of cars on the road. Percentages change as time moves on.

Not round my way, the nearest thing we had to industry was shoe factories and fenlands not exactly coal fired power stations and iron works.

Even the rail networks this way have been electrified since the 1970s.

Most of the smog back then was from cars and lorries round here as there wasn't much else throwing fumes in the air. I don't even remember their being any chimney stacks

 

[SB1500]

Eventually people will have no choice but to cycle or walk because we're dry of fossil fuels and due to the fact we refused to drive smaller cars, reduce our ego and forget out pride ...

Whilst petrol isn't going to solve the problem, it eliminates all the problems around Diesel engines. And the myth that their somehow cheaper to run.

Most people will follow this trend, because they test drive the small petrol turbo cars and like them, and believe the MPG figures quoted by the manufacturer.

Diesels are done for. Like it or not. They will be phased out over time.

If the government could convince us to switch TO them, they'll switch us FROM them just as well. Even if it takes innovation by private companies to develop a new alternative.. it will happen eventually.

If only they could make engines powered by LIES, politicians and the press would have us covered for light years to come...