Technical Hard to select gears

[zoltanpapp82]

Hello again,

I believe in March-April time frame I changed the gearbox oil, greased linkage cable joints and also put some silicone grease to the gearshift rod ball. The oil was very dark so I felt happy to put new TUTELA CAR ZC 75 SYNT GL-5 75W-80 from a webshop. I drained the old one through the drain screw and filled through the level check screw. I also changed the clutch cable as the clutch engaging was noisy - I could match as a dry plastic to metal or metal to metal slipping noise. The car is a left hand one by the way, it is a 2nd generation from 2003, 1.1l petrol engine.

I couple of days weeks later the gear selection was getting worse so I checked the clutch. When I fully press the pedal and start to disengage I have to release 3-4 cm back to start biting. The symptom is not depending on the engine state - it is difficult to select gears with engine off and engine on. With engine off it is not depending on clutch state. The failure is intermittent. Sometimes the shifting is very nice and smooth, sometimes it is impossible - I changing to 2nd first to try 1st. Sometimes the 3rd is like something ... not feeling well.

I read on this forum that many mates have problems with the gear selection and some of them said that they had to put some synthetic grease on the linkage joints. So I decided yesterday to remove the lithium based grease from the linkage and clean the silicone grease from the rod (I used isopropyl alcohol for that... a lot). And put PTFE white grease onto the joints and the ball end of the rod. I went to a test drive and it was something better than before but still not as expected.

I had to go to a shop today and selecting the first was difficult again. I noticed that the sideway movement is not adjustable, but there is and adjustment possibility for the forward and backward movement of the gear selection. Shall I try to adjust it? If so could you advise to tighten or loosen, and what amount? Or did I put wrong oil into the gearbox? Or not enough? Too much? Shall I change the oil again? Which viscosity? Which brand and type?

I'm totally pointless and confused, please help!

Thank you in advance,
Zoltan

 

[DaveMcT]

If the gears will select when engine is not running or when wheels are jacked off the floor its not the selectors causing the problem.

The clutch usually fails by refusing to release rather than slipping. Mismatched shaft speeds cause gears to be hard to engage. The synchromesh cant do the job of the clutch.

What is the mileage?
How old is the clutch?
Do you have fluid in the clutch hydraulic reservoir?
Is the pedal action 100% smooth from top to bottom. Any bounciness or stiffness = bad (pressure plate spring tines bending)
Does the clutch begin to release near the top of travel (normal) or lower down (worn out and not releasing as it should).

New clutch parts are under £100. Fitting should not be any more than the same again.

When the gearbox is out check the input shaft bearing for wear. Any side play at all = new bearings required. It's not a difficult job for a mechanic and the bearings are not costly.

 

[zoltanpapp82]

What is the mileage?
120000km, city usage.


How old is the clutch?
Probably born with it, so 13yo


Do you have fluid in the clutch hydraulic reservoir?
Cable actuated clutch (LHD). Fresh cable installed as the release was really noisy. Some noise remained, but better that was.

Is the pedal action 100% smooth from top to bottom. Any bounciness or stiffness = bad (pressure plate spring tines bending)
A little stiff at bottom, I believe


Does the clutch begin to release near the top of travel (normal) or lower down (worn out and not releasing as it should).
Starts releasing around 3-5cm from top

 

[DaveMcT]

OK the clutch pedal release point sounds ok but the noise suggests you have a failing release bearing or worse. Any sign of heavy pedal action indicates the clutch is failing.

120,000 Ks of city use is likely to have worn the clutch to death. Given that you have hard to select gears and a noisy release bearing you really need to look at having a new clutch fitted. Its not a costly job on these cars and will be good for the same again. Continuing to drive will damage the gearbox.

As said above - if the gears shift correctly with engine stopped its not a gear shift problem.

Please do check the gearbox input bearings and seals. ANY slight problems here will throw oil onto your new clutch meaning the job has to be done all over again.

This thread explains the gearbox issues on Mk2 Punto (boat tail type).
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/158346-input-shaft-bearing-renewal.html

The input bearings seem to have suffered more on RHD (UK) cars than on LHD cars. I personally believe its an oil issue. UK normally park with left side of car lower due to road camber. This lowers the oil level at the gearbox input end. In LHD countries the opposite happens so those bearings see a higher than normal oil level when the engine starts.

 

[zoltanpapp82]

Thank you for the help. A clutch will be fitted asap. Also I'll change the oil to FUCHS TITAN SINTOFLUID 75W-80 GL5, unless you advise a different brand or viscosity.

 

[DaveMcT]

If the gear oil was replaced recently there's no need to repeat the job.

For top protection I would personally try a full synthetic 75-140 gear oil. I use it in the bike which also has helical cut gears (unusual on a bike). Fuel consumption is unchanged and I hope its giving better protection than the older 70-80 grade mineral oil.

I'm sure the fully synth is overkill on the Fiat but it's not silly money for a pair of litre bottles.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Castrol-S...158707?hash=item56886eedf3:g:tjYAAOSwPCVX9H-l

 

[A3jeroen]

The Castrol is for LSD's. I seem to remember reading that the extra dope for LSD's will eat the synchromeshes on our gearboxes.

gr J

 

[koalar]

The failure is intermittent.

The symptom is not depending on the engine state - it is difficult to select gears with engine off and engine on


PTFE white grease onto the joints and the ball end of the rod. I went to a test drive and it was something better than before but still not as expected.

Rarely totally intermittent. Up hill, downhilll, beginning of a journey, end of a trip, cold weather, hot weather, bumpy, smooth, wet, dry, after reverse and so on.

Engine on or off does not totally rule out the clutch. Even with modern synchronization boxes its still helps selection if the clutch freely disengages.. normally if its a problem you will also feel it slight as you disengage.


If changing the grease helped I suspect the problem is in this area. Maybe try disconnecting from the gearbox while failing and seeing if it still stiff and manually pushing the selectors about at the gearbox end. Should at least tell you if the problem is in gear lever cable end or gearbox / clutch end.

 

[zoltanpapp82]

How can I disconnect the wires from the gearbox? I do not see screws which could be removed to make it possible. I assume not a simple popping off procedure...

Thank you!
Zoltan

 

[koalar]

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/335418-gear-cable-linkage-replacement.html


If both seem okay clean and grease the ball joint. Similar setup to the A Class and this joint can cause poor selection also

 

[zoltanpapp82]

A new thing I experienced yesterday. I had the "poor selection symptom" again. So I moved the lever towards the 1st gear and hold in position where it stucked by applying a low amount of force to feel if it can further. Started to engage the clutch very very slowly. after 2-3 cm the lever freely went to position with no withstand.

 

[DaveMcT]

That's how tp CAREFULLY select gears when the clutch fails along with rev matching. Car has to be moving of course.

When first gear does this with car stationary, your clutch is not releasing properly but the synchro is just allowing you to get the gear into mesh.

Do it for too long and you will need a new gearbox.

 

[koalar]

All gearboxes do this. Every car I have owned has done this to some extent. Often say first and second drop right in but third and forth take a little more effort as the gears have to spin slightly to line up. The syncromesh helps but there is still a little extra drag. Slowly lifting the clutch turns the gears to line up.


Syncomesh can cause a gear selection problem. Normally would only affect one gear though.

Clutch problems should not be a problem with the engine switched off. Original post states it makes no difference if the engine is on or off.


Did you disconnect the cables.


Far more likely its just the cables. Quick search on hear will find a multitude of comments like this



"Thanks for all these ideas and advice. I'm not driving the panda much at the moment (on my pins or bike) but had to take it out yesterday and the change had gone from stiff to requiring considerable force to move through the gears and I was worried that actually something was going to snap or that the gears would not select. I Have now had it fixed at my local (independant) garage. Gear control cables were the problem, as you rightly guessed. £180 for the cable set, £310 all in. Ow! Anyway the gears are now running like a dream (almost no resistance, which is disconcerting!). It appeared to be a very quick job if you know what you're doing (I left the car yesterday late afternoon when the part was ordered, garage called me at 08:40 today to say it was ready).

I've never had this problem with a car before but it sounds like I'm not the only one. (I still like the panda though.)"

 

[The Panda Nut]

If it were me I would disconnect the gear change cables from the gearbox end and try operating the gear selectors by hand. If you can engage and disengage gears manually at the gearbox, you will know if the selector cables are at fault. You can also try moving the gear lever with the cables disconnected from the gear box. If the cables are seized or frayed you will be able to tell straight away. Make sure you use the right oil for the box as the wrong viscosity will not help and will put strain on the box when cold.

If the cables are free and the gears can be selected manually then you should look to the clutch. If the box is bad when the engine is switched off it is unlikely to be anything to do with the clutch but could be a fault internally in the gearbox.

Good luck

 

[DaveMcT]

If they are like the HGT Punto (1746cc) the gear cables simply pop off the ball ended pegs on each selector lever. I greased mine before putting back.

As already said - If gears select easily with engine off but are stiff with engine running, it's not the cables.

Set the box in neutral before disconnecting the cable ends.