Technical Gearbox rebuild

[RobinPanda]

Hi, I’ve had a loud bearing noise recently from my 2013 4x4 0.9 twinair Panda. 108k miles. It occurs when in gear, out of gear, forward or reverse, clutch in or out…I’ve removed the gearbox and inspected and there is a fair amount of side to side movement in the output shafts to the front wheels, the rear output and input shafts seem pretty good. It’s been suggested it the differential carrier bearings. Any thoughts?

So I’m looking at getting it rebuilt, but wondered if anyone could recommend a Gearbox engineering company to do it.

Also should I replace the front drive shafts if there is play?

The rear differential seems to have a fair amount of lash, is this normal? Maybe 10 degrees of motion before it turns the wheels?

Lastly the clutch was renewed by the previous owner who put in a solid flywheel…wondered if I should put back the Dusl mass version, or stick with it as is?

 

[Panda IIs]

Hi, I’ve had a loud bearing noise recently from my 2013 4x4 0.9 twinair Panda. 108k miles. It occurs when in gear, out of gear, forward or reverse, clutch in or out…I’ve removed the gearbox and inspected and there is a fair amount of side to side movement in the output shafts to the front wheels, the rear output and input shafts seem pretty good. It’s been suggested it the differential carrier bearings. Any thoughts?

So I’m looking at getting it rebuilt, but wondered if anyone could recommend a Gearbox engineering company to do it.

Also should I replace the front drive shafts if there is play?

The rear differential seems to have a fair amount of lash, is this normal? Maybe 10 degrees of motion before it turns the wheels?

Lastly the clutch was renewed by the previous owner who put in a solid flywheel…wondered if I should put back the Dusl mass version, or stick with it as is?

How is the propshaft centre bearing - maybe not something you want to be considering at this stage of disassembly ?

I have a TA 4x4 on 100k and have always had a bit of whirring which I put down to the rear diff new oil helped it. There's always a bunch of tyre noise too with all season type tyres.

 

[RobinPanda]

How is the propshaft centre bearing - maybe not something you want to be considering at this stage of disassembly ?

I have a TA 4x4 on 100k and have always had a bit of whirring which I put down to the rear diff new oil helped it. There's always a bunch of tyre noise too with all season type tyres.

I’d previously replaced the prop shaft only a few 1000 miles ango and it’s still good and quiet. The noise definitely seemed to emanate from front middle…I.e gearbox or front diff

 

[Eltezz]

I have replaced two prop shafts and one diff input oil seal on Pandas I have owned. Looking at your video I would say the backlash looks normal to me. I can’t help with the clutch or gearbox…

 

[jrkitching]

Lastly the clutch was renewed by the previous owner who put in a solid flywheel…wondered if I should put back the Dual mass version, or stick with it as is?

Fiat obviously thought the additional cost and complexity of fitting a DMF was justified.

Without it, you're putting more shock loads on all the other transmission components, so you may be trading off wear on a DMF against increased wear on bearings and other parts.

And now it seems you are having to replace some bearings...

 

[RobinPanda]

I have replaced two prop shafts and one diff input oil seal on Pandas I have owned. Looking at your video I would say the backlash looks normal to me. I can’t help with the clutch or gearbox…

Thankyou… I just drained the diff down and the oil was clear, and checked the solenoid on the 4wd activator and that was good too so my confidence in the diff is restored!

 

[RobinPanda]

Fiat obviously thought the additional cost and complexity of fitting a DMF was justified.

Without it, you're putting more shock loads on all the other transmission components, so you may be trading off wear on a DMF against increased wear on bearings and other parts.

And now it seems you are having to replace some bearings...

Hi, yep, I’m thinking I’ll pull out the flywheel and put a DMF back in, LUK do a kit, with clutch, any thoughts on them as a brand? Thanks for your help

 

[jrkitching]

LUK do a kit, with clutch, any thoughts on them as a brand

Judging from other posts on the subject, they seem to be well regarded.

They're also a brand sold by shop4parts, who generally don't stock or sell rubbish.

I'd not have any qualms about fitting one myself.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Judging from other posts on the subject, they seem to be well regarded.

They're also a brand sold by shop4parts, who generally don't stock or sell rubbish.

I'd not have any qualms about fitting one myself.

I agree, LUC is a trusted brand, been around for quite a while and I would trust them.

Dual mass flywheels, whether to replace with a solid one or splash the cash and stick with a dual mass? When solid replacement kits started appearing I thought "What a great idea" and, had I owned a car with a DM flywheel which needed a clutch I would, back then, have had no hesitation in fitting a solid flywheel kit. Then I started hearing of gearboxes suffering damage after having a solid flywheel fitted in place of a DM, I've even heard stories of crankshafts breaking - although never actually seen one - also it's not unusual for owners to complain of a "harsh" drive. I started looking into them and found that some of the conversion kits being offered were now using a "special" driven plate with much bigger and longer travel cushioning springs in an attempt to reduce shock loads on the gearbox. I certainly wouldn't contemplate fitting one which didn't include one of these modified driven plates. Personally though, much as I dislike DM flywheels, I'd be replacing like for like if it were my car.

Edit. I wouldn't fit a used flywheel with a new clutch kit either. Of course a lot more expensive to replace the flywheel but even more expensive to have to tear it all out after a few thousand miles and redo it all! My reasoning is that the existing flywheel has already survived one clutch and, even if passing checks at the time, may well not be fit for purpose another 20, or 30 thousand miles down the road.

 

[jrkitching]

I started looking into them and found that some of the conversion kits being offered were now using a "special" driven plate with much bigger and longer travel cushioning springs in an attempt to reduce shock loads on the gearbox. I certainly wouldn't contemplate fitting one which didn't include one of these modified driven plates.

AIUI Fiat changed/improved the design of the TA DMF some years ago now, following a spate of early failures. My understanding is that the two versions are interchangeable. I've seen a number of different FIAT part numbers for these flywheels.

I've no idea how long the first versions stayed in the OEM parts supply chain.

I wouldn't fit a used flywheel with a new clutch kit either.

Given the close working tolerances, it's generally advised to replace the DMF if the clutch is changed, regardless of condition - if it lasts that long! It's regarded as a service item, and may be excluded from many used car warranties - so anyone relying on one would do well to check the small print.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

AIUI Fiat changed the design of the TA DMF some years ago now, following a spate of early failures. My understanding is that the two versions are interchangeable.

I've no idea how long the first versions stayed in the OEM parts supply chain.

Given the close working tolerances, it's generally advised to replace the DMF if the clutch is changed, regardless of condition - if it lasts that long!

I'd imagine a twin cylinder engine does work a DM flywheel pretty hard, especially at the lower end of the rev range. For my driving style DM flywheels worry me. I like to let the clutch bite at quite low revs and, when in heavy city traffic, I like to let the car dribble along at tickover in first gear with the clutch fully engaged. Even worse, Edinburgh is full of 20mph speed limits - I bet there's now more 20mph than 30 - and they often have sequences of sleeping policemen ramps. I tend to drive in 2nd gear in these situations to avoid constant gear changing. So I'll be in second doing 20 mph, foot off the throttle until the car hits around 10mph, which is a wee bit more than 1,000 rpm, go over the bump at this speed to minimise road spring deflection and press the accelerator pedal to take us back up to 20 then back off again to 10mph for the next bump in the sequence and so on. With a solid flywheel, no problem, but with a DM the constant accelerating away at low revs causes large deflections of the flywheel damping springs and, I'm sure, hastens the demise of the flywheel. The fact the Ibiza had a solid flywheel and, I was reliably informed so does the Scala, were major factors I considered when buying.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

AIUI Fiat changed/improved the design of the TA DMF some years ago now, following a spate of early failures. My understanding is that the two versions are interchangeable. I've seen a number of different FIAT part numbers for these flywheels.

I've no idea how long the first versions stayed in the OEM parts supply chain.


Given the close working tolerances, it's generally advised to replace the DMF if the clutch is changed, regardless of condition - if it lasts that long! It's regarded as a service item, and may be excluded from many used car warranties - so anyone relying on one would do well to check the small print.

If you're paying extra for it I'd very strongly advise anyone considering a supplementary warranty to very, very carefully read it through. Personally I've never yet really found one I felt I wanted to buy. When my boy bought his new Kia Rio, a few years ago now, with it's desirable 7 year warranty, I spent an afternoon very carefully reading through what you are covered for. Initially, in the early years, it does seem to be very good, I was impressed. But then, as the years mount up, they start excluding stuff. However, the car has been very good indeed and really has just needed routine services and tyres, wiper blades, etc.

When buying a used car I've found that generally, if the warranty is being provided by the selling garage itself with repairs being done by them, then it's worth having. If all it is is some bought in warranty, my experience has been they often exclude shed loads of stuff which might well need looking at while include an impressively long list stuff which is not so likely to need looking at.

 

[RobinPanda]

Thanks, yep going to replace it all

I agree, LUC is a trusted brand, been around for quite a while and I would trust them.

Dual mass flywheels, whether to replace with a solid one or splash the cash and stick with a dual mass? When solid replacement kits started appearing I thought "What a great idea" and, had I owned a car with a DM flywheel which needed a clutch I would, back then, have had no hesitation in fitting a solid flywheel kit. Then I started hearing of gearboxes suffering damage after having a solid flywheel fitted in place of a DM, I've even heard stories of crankshafts breaking - although never actually seen one - also it's not unusual for owners to complain of a "harsh" drive. I started looking into them and found that some of the conversion kits being offered were now using a "special" driven plate with much bigger and longer travel cushioning springs in an attempt to reduce shock loads on the gearbox. I certainly wouldn't contemplate fitting one which didn't include one of these modified driven plates. Personally though, much as I dislike DM flywheels, I'd be replacing like for like if it were my car.

Edit. I wouldn't fit a used flywheel with a new clutch kit either. Of course a lot more expensive to replace the flywheel but even more expensive to have to tear it all out after a few thousand miles and redo it all! My reasoning is that the existing flywheel has already survived one clutch and, even if passing checks at the time, may well not be fit for purpose another 20, or 30 thousand miles down the road.

,

 

[Panda IIs]

Thankyou… I just drained the diff down and the oil was clear, and checked the solenoid on the 4wd activator and that was good too so my confidence in the diff is restored!

You are aware the refill procedure is quite complicated? Making sure it is filled properly, there's a post with the full procedure on here somewhere.

 

[Panda IIs]

You are aware the refill procedure is quite complicated? Making sure it is filled properly, there's a post with the full procedure on here somewhere.

Here - https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/rear-differential-oil.520476/#post-4840262 Post 9 has the documented procedure.

 

[RobinPanda]

You are aware the refill procedure is quite complicated? Making sure it is filled properly, there's a post with the full procedure on here somewhere.

I didn’t know that…I’ll look it out! Thanks