Technical  6 speed gearbox

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Technical  6 speed gearbox

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hi, all
has anyone fitted the twin air 6 speed gearbox to the multijet diesel?
2015 cross 4x4, the motor revs quite high at motorway speeds, understand lower gears better for off road .
or maybe aftermarket overdrive.
just thinking.
cheers.
 
I cant see any advantages to this at all. The 6 speed is for the lower torque TA to improve low speed off road prgress. It does this but in reality is a bit of a pain on the road as 1st is so low. Unless you are going to the north pole I would say its not something that would ahve any beneficial effect. If it was a good idea Fiat would have done this. TA in top seems lower geared than teh MJ in teh fisrt place.
 
hi, all
has anyone fitted the twin air 6 speed gearbox to the multijet diesel?
2015 cross 4x4, the motor revs quite high at motorway speeds, understand lower gears better for off road .
or maybe aftermarket overdrive.
just thinking.
cheers.
Not sure that it would be feasible since diesel has separate PTO for rear wheel prop shaft whereas 6 speed is integral? Getting alignment with the propshaft centre line might be a challenge? Happy to bow to more informed members!

More interesting might be Abarth 4 pot with 4 wheel drive??? :ROFLMAO: But probably equally impractical without significant engineering capabilities.
 
I was just thinking has anyone replaced a C514.5 for a C514.6 gearbox in to a Mk4 2012 (generation 3) 2 wheel drive. But reading the above the gear ratios would be wrong. A long time ago I had a garage do that to me on a Nissan. The first time I got on the duel carriageway my poor engine needed an extra 1000rpm to do 70mph. Then I had to go into battle with them, trying to tell me it was the same box. I did get the correct box fitted in the end. But if anyone has swapped their 5 speed gearbox for a 6 speed, I would be interested to know the results. Thanks
 
Diesel engines have lower revs higher torque so fitting an engine from a diesel to a petrol especially something like the Twinair. The Multijet has something like 40% more torque than the twinair.

This means first gear on the diesel can be a higher ratio and this can apply to all the gears through the range. the Twinair engine may struggle to get the car moving with the diesel gearbox fitted.

even if the ratios are the same the final drive may be different.
 
The engine revs at 70mph in top gear (6th on TA or fifth on the MJ) are practically the same with the TwinAir and the MultiJet diesel — around 2800rpm.

The six speed TA 4x4 gearbox has (essentially) the same five upper gear ratios as the MJ plus a super-low first to compensate for the lower amount of torque the TA 4x4 has for slow speed off road manoeuvres. Put that in an MJ and the super-low gear would be wasted.
 
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The engine revs at 70mph in top gear (6th on TA or fifth on the MJ) are practically the same with the TwinAir and the MultiJet diesel — around 2800rpm.

The six speed TA 4x4 gearbox has (essentially) the same five upper gears as the MJ plus a super-low first to compensate for the lower amount of torque the TA 4x4 has for slow speed off road manoeuvres.

So, it would be a useless bottom gear on an MJ, and lead to a lack of low-end grunt on the TA… bad result either way :)

They are not the same at the top end.

They are very similar in 1st - 5th but there is quite a difference between 6th in the 6speed box and 5th in the 5speed diesel box.

looks something like this
EnginePanda Twinair Gear RatiosMPHPanda 1.3 Multijet Gear RatiosMPH
RPM1st4.112.774.27312.53
28002nd2.15824.262.23823.93
3rd1.34538.931.44437.09
4th0.97453.761.02952.05
5th0.76668.360.76769.83
6th0.64681.06
Final3.8183.733

So at 2800RPM in 6th you are doing 81mph and assuming the same tire size in the diesel you are doing 70mph at the same RPM

the 6th speed in the petrol is clearly to try and offer a little better economy otherwise at 3000 RPM to do 70mph the petrol car would be using a considerable amount more fuel than a 5 speed, not so it is very likely done to keep the petrol within emissions standards.

The diesel puts out far less CO2 so far less of a concern if it is doing 3000 RPM. But I am pretty sure if Fiat could have done a 6 speed in the Diesel they would have, as it would have brought down engine revs and resulted in a more comfortable ride at motorway speeds.

Having thought about this a little more I think there are a few issues that meant that they didn't put a 6cog on a multijet 4x4.

Torque. The torque of the diesel (which is actually 90% more than the petrol to correct my previous statement) would potentially damage the TwinAir gear box. but assuming that the twinair just used a 6speed gearbox from something else the next issue would be.....

Fitment. The Twinair engine is a very different engine to fiat's 1.3 multijet. The multijet is more akin to the Fire engine, I believe the multijet was modified from the Fire engine, however the Twinair was a totally "new" engine thats not to say they didn't design the fitment of the gearbox to be compatible with existing gearboxes but it does then lead me to my next point which is.......

Placement. all evidence would suggest with the Twinair being a narrower engine means that it is placed in the engine bay more over to the offside of the engine bay, moving the gearbox more centrally to the engine bay. The Multijet and other Fire engine equipped cars have an intermediate shaft from the gearbox to the off side, to get the drive shaft power out passed the engine block, but with the twinair being much narrower and the gearbox moving more centrally the TwinAir doesn't need an intermediate shaft it has two similar drive shafts straight from the box to the wheels.
The whole setup allows for more space in the engine bay on the nearside (uk layout) and I remember that 6 speed gearboxes in fiat's tend to be wider as the 6 gear is in essence bolted on the end of the gearbox.

This is why the Abarth 500's did not come with a manual 6 speed gearbox and it was only in 2015 they offered a 6 speed in an automatic (different design) gearbox.

I think any 6 speed in a panda engine bay if mated to the end of a 4 cylinder engine, would protrude quite significantly into the nearside wheel well.

This video shows the difference in size on a 5 - 6speed gearbox change, there is quite a lot of extra width on the 6 speed.
 
They are not the same at the top end.

...
I agree: the main reason is there isn’t any room -- the front subframe 'leg' on a Panda is right in the way :)

As to the ratios, it seems there is quite a difference in the final drive ratio of the six speed box when it’s used the 4x4 Panda version of the TwinAir. The official data sheet from Fiat shows the TA -- uniquely in Panda 4x4 guise -- has a very different final drive ratio of 5.308, making all the gearing much lower, and bringing 6th in the TA closer to, but still lower than, fifth in the MJ - see (This corrects my earlier post above: its not that first is extra low (as everyone has always said)... its that all five gears are lower in the 4x4 TA - owing to that altered final drive ratio - and then sixth is added in to give a higher gear at the top end)

Not only is the overall gearing very different but also the six-speed gearbox used on the TA Panda 4x4 has a built-in drive to the rear propshaft... so potentially is different unit to that to other Fiat models.

This earlier thread on the subject https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/best-on-the-motorway.423980/post-4065402 (and the pages it then links to) seems to agree with my comment that the TA has lower gearing (specifically in 4x4 Panda guise) than the MJ 4x4… Others there agree with me that the 4x4 TA Panda is at higher revs at 70mph than the diesel. (And suggest that the 5 speed 'box in the 2WD drive version has a higher fifth gear than sixth the 4x4). It is different when used in other Fiats... (such as the Punto)
 
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