General Fuel additives...... a good thing?

[Thidwick]

I’ve posted my first thread under Newbie Central. Called it “Check Engine warning light” or similar. That thread explains that our Ducato based motorhome has developed a check engine warning lamp, and the handbook leads me to the view that it is an injector problem.
I’d be grateful for any advice on this - see the thread in Newbie Central.
If this is an injector problem, might it go away without interference if I put some additive into the fuel? There are additives available which say they clean injectors.
In a previous life I worked in a job where we had some huge marine diesel-powered generators, and we did have problems with the underground fuel tanks growing bugs in the fuel. We used to add diesel-specific biocide stuff.

If we don’t use or motorhome routinely, and very little this year, would fuel additives be a good thing to help prevent injector problems?

 

[jimboy]

Snake oil, most car manufactures if not all will tell you do not add any additives. In fact there have been occasions of doing more harm than good. I read recently in a car magazine that using so and so additive is a good thing and the name was mentioned again and again, reading between the lines, this was no more than clever advertising, it smacked of payment to the mag’ for using their name in which looked like trials with this product.

Some additive companies have been taking to court in the past for misleading claims, but that’s another story. The best way to clean injectors is to remove and get them professionally seen to.Most drivers will some time or another will add something and think it’s not going to do any harm, then again it’s not going to anything either. Finally this is a multi billion industry and these additive companies all want a slice.

 

[Thidwick]

Hmmmm... perhaps I won’t bother with fuel additive then. Interesting that when I look on-line, there are loads of them for sale. Someone must believe in them.

 

[jimboy]

Hmmmm... perhaps I won’t bother with fuel additive then. Interesting that when I look on-line, there are loads of them for sale. Someone must believe in them.

Aye you’re right, but most will chuck something in an engine knowing nothing about said product, maybe the placebo effect could kick in. Of course doing something like this will make some drivers feel better

 

[physicalperfection]

You'd think the Trades Descriptions Act or some such would kick in if the additives were useless?

 

[jimboy]

You'd think the Trades Descriptions Act or some such would kick in if the additives were useless?

Good point. In some cases it’s down to careful wording, in other cases the additive may have antiware agents and other things that work to a degree but are already in your engine oil, having more is not necessary better.

 

[physicalperfection]

Shell and BP claim to have better fuels - are these lies?

 

[physicalperfection]

I use Archoil in 2 middle aged diesels.
I may be a fool, but I believe it helps, after doing a lot of reading on the subject.
Others may disagree, but the cost is not great if bought in bulk, so my view is, it is worth the effort.

 

[GeorgeDamper]

Shell and BP claim to have better fuels - are these lies?

I use BP Ultimate in my 53 Reg Panda (156k). I have been told several times that it is a waste of money. When I got the car 7 years ago every MOT it was high on the emissions readings.

Ever since I started using Ultimate the emissions are low. It might not make any difference to some cars but it works for me. I think the additives are keeping the injectors clean

 

[Communicator]

The OP of thie linked thread,certainly advocates turbo cleaner. See final post from OP.


https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Turbo-question/56543/

 

[RS3100]

I think additives are largely snake oil, but there is a difference between a so called performance enhancing additive and a biocide. I use a diesel biocide in my van when it is laid up over the winter months.

As for different fuels, they all come down the same pipe from the refinery to the distribution centres. But at the distribution centres they are diverted into separate tanks where Shell, BP, Tesco etc. add their own blended additives. I'm told that the more "premium" fuels are blended to meet the requirements of modern vehicles, but if you are driving something more than 4-5 years old, the cheaper but still reputable fuels are basically the equivalent of what was premium specification at that time.

I usually fill up with Shell, since I use their app. I mostly use regular diesel, but fill with V-Power diesel about every fourth tankful. On a recent trip to Scotland via M1/M6/M74 I had filled with V-Power just before the trip. I got an indicated 39 mpg on the consumption readout on the van. Whilst I realise this may not be totally accurate, I can compare it with the same reading from the same van over several previous trips on the same route, where the most I have ever previously managed was 34 mpg.

Whether that's worth the cost of the V-Power fuel is another matter.

Volvo recommend 98 RON fuel for my car, but say that 95 RON is acceptable. Again, I generally use 98 RON every fourth tankful. I can't say that I have noticed any great mpg imrovement using it in the car, but it is noticeably more lively on the super-unleaded fuel, which perhaps encourages me to make it drink more

 

[portland_bill]

Additives are generally only effective at jobs before combustion.
A good brand name injector cleaner can be helpful with older injectors.
A biocide is also useful if the vehicle is not used so regularly that the fuel tank is refilled frequently. Overnight condensation in the tank can start the growth of micro-organisms. A full tank resists this somewhat.
Additives claiming to fix anything in the combustion chamber, or after it need to explain how they get through the combustion process intact and able to work. Not seen one with such an explanation yet.

 

[jimboy]

I use Archoil in 2 middle aged diesels.
I may be a fool, but I believe it helps, after doing a lot of reading on the subject.
Others may disagree, but the cost is not great if bought in bulk, so my view is, it is worth the effort.

I started off with long write up here, then thought nah! That stuff you use is not cheap. Regarding premium fuels they will indeed contain similar products to your chosen additive. The jury is still out on the net’ about this but that’s another part of the story. Any modern car does not require additives in any shape or form. An old diesel however could be cleaned engine wise to a degree. How much, you would have to strip down an engine to really have any idea how efficient these additives are.

I had a wee diesel van some years ago, tuff little work horse, and did like yourself reading up about this subject. Talk at the time of adding 2stroke oil to the fuel. What the hell I thought, cheap and nothing to loose. There was among other things said, it would lubricate the pump and improve the running of the engine. I remember the first time I poured a measured amount into the tank and filling up with diesel. On start up I literally heard the engine run smoother and quiet down... As an old cynic you could say I was more than a bit surprised. whether it was a good thing or damaging I don’t know.

Make of that of what you want, it was a cheap thing to do. Don’t have the van any more, but it did run like a clock. It was written off by a 4x4 driver

 

[varesecrazy]

I use BP Ultimate in my 53 Reg Panda (156k). I have been told several times that it is a waste of money. When I got the car 7 years ago every MOT it was high on the emissions readings.

Ever since I started using Ultimate the emissions are low. It might not make any difference to some cars but it works for me. I think the additives are keeping the injectors clean

The FUEL has different consituent ingredients..

Thats why it gives better MPG.. and costs more

Pence per miles is basically the same


A friend drives high miles in a VW.. a VW centric indy recommended a similar 'lotion'

Its £15 a tank.. used once a month..

Got a good reception ( that on top of only using 'ultra' fuels..)

So I split it between 2 of my mj's made no difference.. with supermarket fuels


Im still unconvinced

 

[portland_bill]

.. An old diesel however could be cleaned engine wise to a degree. How much, you would have to strip down an engine to really have any idea how efficient these additives are.

I had a wee diesel van some years ago, tuff little work horse, and did like yourself reading up about this subject. Talk at the time of adding 2stroke oil to the fuel. What the hell I thought, cheap and nothing to loose. There was among other things said, it would lubricate the pump and improve the running of the engine. I remember the first time I poured a measured amount into the tank and filling up with diesel. On start up I literally heard the engine run smoother and quiet down... As an old cynic you could say I was more than a bit surprised. whether it was a good thing or damaging I don’t know.

My brother has run a lot of old diesels. Most are smoky when purchased, probably due to wear on the mechanical injectors. Dirty injectors will affect the spray pattern, and combustion efficiency.
He doses them twice a year with injector cleaner, and they just gently get cleaner. Having to follow them occasionally, and trying to breathe is a reasonable scientific assessment I feel.

Diesel fuel is dirty, and trying to burn it cleanly is difficult. Modern electronic injectors help, as they can compensate a little for wear and contamination. Diesel tends to create a lot of soot. I would have thought that 2-stroke oil will increase that, but will have the advantage of lubricating the mechanical injection pump nicely. Again, later common rail systems will not benefit so much. If an owner of an older diesel does not mind suffocating following traffic, a little 2-stroke oil might be useful. Might also discourage unsafe overtakes, if, by the smell, the following traffic assumes you must be following a small scooter.

 

[jimboy]

Actually on start up the van was a bit smoky, but when I got going no smoke.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

We've had a number of threads mentioning additives generally and I've joined in with my Ha'penny worth myself. So people will know that I'm not a fan of additives. In particular I don't "do" oil additives, I think the money is much better spent on a quality oil. I'm not that fussy about the brand - although I do go for names I "know" and trust - and I don't do extended change intervals. ("Family Fleet" vehicles are done every 12 months or 10,000 miles whichever comes first) and always a filter change at the same time. I'm not a fan of flushing but I'll say no more on that as is can get complicated.

Fuel additives are a bit more complicated. As Jim was saying above, there are fuel additives which you add a whole can at a time - so high concentration - which are intended to clean the system and especially the injector spray holes. These work well if the injector is not grossly contaminated but will probably need more than one dosing if the nozzle is quite dirty. However a seriously clogged nozzle is probably going to need a proper ultrasonic clean up. Probably running a premium fuel which will have higher concentrations of these beneficial ingredients incorporated in them is a better long term solution though. I owned my old 1.9tdi SEAT Cordoba for 19 years and clocked up well into the low 100,000s of miles with it. That was when Low Sulphur diesel was first introduced and there were problems being reported of excessive wear in high pressure injection pumps and injectors due to the low lubricity of these new fuels. I got very worried about the "old style" distributor type pump and traditional spring type injectors in this car which were designed for use with the older fuels so I went looking for an additive which specifically improved lubrication. I came up with Wynns Eco Diesel. (The Wynns brand I knew well from my Drag racing days) https://www.wynns.eu/product/eco-diesel/ This is a product which you dose every tankful with so it's always there. I thought I had a small injector problem at around the 90,000 miles so pulled the injectors and handed them in to Lawsons Diesel (trusted local diesel specialist) for a check over. He dismantled and cleaned them before reassembling and setting the blow off pressures - which had dropped a little with the springs aging - He said he really couldn't find anything wrong with them and was astonished they'd done 90,000+ miles He gave me a free set of sealing washers and new blow off pipes and said he was still embarrassed to be charging me the £25 he did. I'm convinced this lack of wear was down to the Eco Diesel. By the way, it always passed it's MOT with a "Fast Pass" so only one revving up to the governor limit each year!

Now I have the Ibiza with its tiny 999cc 3 cylinder direct injection turbocharged petrol engine. There are a number of things which concern me about small direct injection petrol engines Injector clogging due to the tip being in the combustion chamber is one and inlet tract carbon fouling is another. There are also issues of high pressure pump wear reported, especially on the earlier systems. So I set out to find an additive which would perhaps help with these issues and came up with Archoil AR6900-P Max :https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/arc...d-petrol-synthesis.html#tab-label-description Again this is a product which you add a small concentration to every tankful so it's always there so always working. I'm not at all convinced about whether it can do much for the inlet tract fouling being as how it's being introduced directly into the combustion chamber? but we'll see. Unless she starts playing up before then, I'm planning to take the inlet manifold off (a bit of a job as it has an integral water cooled intercooler) at around the 50,000 mile mark and have a look into the ports. I'll do a post about it when the time comes.

At present I'm running the Ibiza on Morrison's 95 octane juice which is the fuel octane recommended on the filler cap. I have been meaning to try her on a few tanks full of the Shell premium fuel (which everyone seems to say is the best currently available) to see if fuel economy or performance is noticably increased. Being turboed this engine is bristling with knock detectors etc so should be able to take any advantage available from the higher octane fuel and use it to best effect. I also feel concerned about LSPI which can be a problem with these wee turboed engines - although it doesn't seem to be a particular problem with the VAG units - A higher octane fuel should make pre ignition less likely too. Also of concern was the piston problem on the earlier TSI's where they would break up the piston ring lands. I understand that was a materials problem with the metal the pistons were made from and has been addressed on later units - fingers crossed!

In conclusion then I'm still not a fan of additives for lubricants but do see a place for fuel additives to address specific circumstances. Generally though I think you could spend quite a lot of money on additives and gain very liitle benefit.

 

[offnote]

looks like waste of money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chsGBhB5g7o&ab_channel=FortNine

 

[physicalperfection]

I haven't worked it out recently, and diesel prices fluctuate, of course, but I did reckon that adding Archoil AR6900 - D Max to bog standard diesel was 10% of the extra cost of Shell V-Power.
It seems that folk generally rate BP Ultimate and Shell V Power over the other fuels. It has been said that Bog standard + Archoil = V Power. I have no idea if this is true, but, touch wood, my diesels* are running sweet. Snakeoil seems to work for me.

* 2006 2.8jtd and 2006 X3 3.0 - both remapped.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

looks like waste of money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chsGBhB5g7o&ab_channel=FortNine

I'm puzzled? Please expand the relevance of a fuel stabilizer to the subject here?