General Franklin Tools & Stilo Rear Bushes.

[Shadeyman]

here is the Fiat Service News Bulletin about the Stilo bushes replacement....

Thank you very very much. :worship:

A definitive answer at last. :slayer:

 

[davidthelodge]

Very interesting, but as they only last about 45-50,000 miles I wonder why Fiat say they can't be replaced more than once in the same axle?

 

[yellowstilo]

i guess Fiat assumes the bore in the axle will wear out by replacing the bush but considering the huge oversize i think replacing them more than once will be no problem?
Some other ideas ??

 

[keviwal]

Hi,
I suspect the concern would be that although its not mentioned in the guide some folk may decide to apply heat to the subframe and this may alter the properties of the steel used. Also another reason due to the rather large interference fit you may over stress the steel when fitting/removing the bush and ultimately ruin the bore of the subframe.
Just a thought and probably complete nonsense although i will ask one of the
metallurgists at work tomorrow and see if they may have any ideas from a metallurgy aspect.

Cheers

Kev W

 

[sixpotman]

Limited life of the axle due to metal fatigue -
refitting the larger bush in a smaller hole
putting excesive strain on the axle over time
causing failure.

John

 

[Shadeyman]

It would seem they are very concernd about the paint and welds near where the bush fits. I wonder if it's the way they fit the bushes that causes damage/stress in those area's? The hyraulic device they use has to clamp very securely in that area and is almost certainly going to remove the paint, possibley even damage the welds?

 

[Davren]

Well, surprise, surprise, I got a phone call from the woman at Klann UK today ..................

To say that she hadn't had a reply from Klann Germany yet.

Woman from Klann Tools phoned back today. Prices are:

KL-1615-11 Complete tool excluding pump.......... £2033.34 +VAT

KL-0039-1666 Extractor press piece only................£25.17 +VAT
KL-1615-1229 Insertion 3 pronged press piece only £197.87 +VAT
.

Prices for the Fiat tools mentioned in the Service Bulletin:

2000011200 Complete tool ..............P.O.A. from Fiat Italy

2000000500 Extractor press piece only............... £6.16 +VAT
2000000400 Insertion 3 pronged press piece only £12.76 +VAT

Annoying thing is, I've just spent 2 days and £35 trying to make the 3 pronged part and it only costs £12.79 from Fiat.

 

[Deckchair5]

Thanks for the info Davren. I'm sure yours is of infinitely superior quality

 

[Argonought]

Thanks for the info Davren. I'm sure yours is of infinitely superior quality

Bit of deja vu there - if you think back to when you considered making a wind back tool for the rear brakes - and then found Fiat sold a tool for peanuts

 

[Davren]

Bit of deja vu there - if you think back to when you considered making a wind back tool for the rear brakes - and then found Fiat sold a tool for peanuts

I think the Fiat rear caliper tool has quadrupled in price since then. It costs lots of peanuts now.

 

[Deckchair5]

HA! But, like Davren's, mine would have been of infinitely superior quality

 

[Shadeyman]

Darven.

I spoke to a Fiat dealer this morning about how they replace the bushes.

Most do reduce the interference fit, wouldn't say how or if it was the bush or the subframe but I had the feeling it was the subframe(reamed to suit). Use the kit you brought and a very large three legged flywheel extractor. I was asked not to mention the name of the dealer or the machine shop they send them to but I think I finally have a few answers:

1. The bore in the subframes vary with model and age so the bushes are supplied at the larger end of the scale.

2. Reduce the interference fit(or buy a £20,000 press and specialised tool)

3. cut out the old bush, use the Fiat kit and Large fly wheel extractor(large thread ) to press the new one in.

All seems a bit simple but he asured me that was how it was done?

After they described the tool to me I was wrong to call the device a "Flywheel Extractor". I found out this morning its called a "Hydraulic Puller".

Its used the same way but is capable of delivering forces of over 10 ton and has a reach of 300mm.

I found a similar one on ebay and I've attached a pic of it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-Triple-Leg-Hydraulic-Puller-10tonne-/150345508919

 

[Deckchair5]

Both of the pictures you've put up are really 3 leg gear pullers. The power may be good enough on this last one but, like most the pictures of the actual Stilo tools, you really need a two leg type extractor and with a positive connection on the other side, not something that is just hanging on with those feet on the legs


More like this if you're going around the outside


Or like this if you're using a bolt up through the middle of the bush

 

[Shadeyman]

Due to having a friend that works at the dealers I was able to get a look at the tools early this morning. Thats when I realised my mistake, the tool they use is hydraulic, not threaded. The legs easily hook on to the rear of the bore in the subframe and push the bush in. Once its pushed almost in to position they place a steel cup on the rear of the subframe, hook the legs onto it and continue to push the bush home. The cup is there to allow the bush to protrude out the rear of the bore when the bush is pushed fully home. They use a 3 legged tool because its a lot more stable than a 2 legged tool. Wish I'd taken my phone to take a few pics but I left it at home in the rush to get there.

 

[Davren]

After they described the tool to me I was wrong to call the device a "Flywheel Extractor". I found out this morning its called a "Hydraulic Puller".

Its used the same way but is capable of delivering forces of over 10 ton and has a reach of 300mm.

I found a similar one on ebay and I've attached a pic of it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-Triple-Leg-Hydraulic-Puller-10tonne-/150345508919

Interesting, but I think £135 delivered is a bit expensive for something that may work and is only likely to be used once.

When I do mine, I'm going to start off by trying the cheapest option first, i.e. the Fiat three pronged press piece (or my homemade one) and threaded rod then progress on from there if (when?) it doesn't work.

 

[Shadeyman]

Interesting, but I think £135 delivered is a bit expensive for something that may work and is only likely to be used once.

When I do mine, I'm going to start off by trying the cheapest option first, i.e. the Fiat three pronged press piece (or my homemade one) and threaded rod then progress on from there if (when?) it doesn't work.

I plan to start by using the cheap threaded type first to see if its capable of bushing in the bushes my friend machined down for me(removed 0.15mm from the dia). Just incase I have a hydraulic back up plan.


As I have 2 cars to do I hope to find a simple solution that others could use if they wanted. Simple, easy and cheap preferably.

The heavy interference fit is what makes this job a pain in the ***. Using a little common sence and reducing it makes it a lot less of a pain and a lot cheaper.

I going to try 2 different ways this week end.

First car, subframe in situ, cut out the old bush, reduce the interference fit. Then use a thread, Fiats own 3 pronged press piece(or my own) to push the bush in. The cheap, easy option and on my own car.

Second car, also subframe in situ, cut out the old bush then use a small 2 inch hydraulic jack with a 4 ton lifting capacity to push the untouched bushes in. The not so easy or cheap option on my mates car.

I'm hoping both techniques work. Be the results good or bad I'll take photo's and upload them.

 

[Deckchair5]

If it's any help, you don't need to guess with the interference fits

http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e6_2.htm
This is a useful interference fit calculator which will show the resistance to torque and friction forces for different fits

Anything more than a heavy interference fit isn't precision engineering but pure dockyard. The bush is around 61mm diameter

 

[Davren]

The bush is around 61mm diameter

My new bushes are around 67mm diameter.

 

[Deckchair5]

That makes sense
Someone posted this up a while back but I'm not sure exactly what they were referring to

I have just measured the metal sleeve and found that it is tapered towards the shoulder. It is 67.17mm and 67.35mm. the sleeve is 61mm between these distances and there is a2mm lip just before the shouolder, this is 67.41mm in diameter. hope this helps and will measure the openings on the "subframe" tomorrow. Hope they have have decided to reduce the interference fit as the bush is captive once the bolts are in place anyway.
ps. This is a genuine Fiat part.

It would be nice to have an accurate machine drawing of the whole bush

 

[Shadeyman]

If it's any help, you don't need to guess with the interference fits

http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e6_2.htm
This is a useful interference fit calculator which will show the resistance to torque and friction forces for different fits

Anything more than a heavy interference fit isn't precision engineering but pure dockyard. The bush is around 61mm diameter

Thanks thats very usefull.

Davren is correct the dia of the new bushes is around 67mm, its length is 65mm.