Technical Flat Battery revived

[Gina500]

Had a totally flat battery recently. Not sure if my wife left the ignition on when she parked the car in the garage, but the battery was massively discharged after only a few hrs. I first thought it was some sort of electronics hiccup due to the weird light show on the display, and tried disconnecting the battery to reset everything, but no change. Then I measured voltage and found around 8V! My intelligent charger refused to charge this, so I had to use a classic dumb charger that managed to deliver around 8 amps but showing signs of stress. After a while, the battery came back enough to start the car. The generator pumped up to 70 amps into the battery at revs, so I decided to charge overnight with the intelligent charger which now accepted the battery. Next day all was back to normal with a voltage around 12.8V.
The battery is around 4 years old and probably experienced some reduction in lifetime from this exercise, but so far all is working fine. Will see how it copes in winter. It is a S/S battery btw.

 

[portland_bill]

The symptoms do look like something was left on, but that is difficult with that Fiat. If you leave the ignition on, after a time it will disable most circuits, requiring and 'Off' and 'On' to bring them back up. The interior light will turn off after a while, not sure about the boot light, if fitted, and of course the headlamps go off with the ignition. If the keys are out, all should be dead.

Occasionally a battery will develop a dead cell, that will suddenly drop and prevent current flowing through the whole battery. They can revive with fierce charging, but will usually fail again soon. this is the most likely cause.

Go to a garage and get the battery tested. They put a meter on it and subject it to a heavy discharge, to test its output when starting the car. That will usually show any issues with a failing battery.

 

[Gina500]

I suspect that ignition was on. Wife came to me saying the car doesn´t start. No indication if the key was in or not.
Testing the battery will probably cost me half of the price of a new one - while this makes sense in principle I will skip it for the moment. Start/Stop is working fine, that is confirmation for reasonable health enough at this point. Batteries typically survive deep discharge if they are charged right after that - before the chemistry starts working. So I am optimistic it will live for another couple of years.
When the car was in ignition on/engine off mode, it drew around 10 amps, more than half that was the AC fan (interior). With all systems off and doors closed it goes back to around 1 amp and after a minute or so (when the lights go dim), 400mA. Probably even less after all systems go to quiescent state.
Charging was done with the negative cable off, so no danger of irritating any of the electronics.

 

[Ralf S.]

How did your missus turn the engine off, if the ignition was still on...?

I thought only the Younger Mrs S. was able to do stuff like that....


Ralf S.

 

[Gina500]

Don´t ask me - turned it off and then on again to get some cold air from the A/C ? Or to close the roof / windows ?
There´s a few good reasons to turn it on. Not for leaving it on, though

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It's taken me many years of careful and sympathetic encouragement to get Mrs J to "understand" what most of the dashboard lights are telling her and I really thought she had got a grip on some of the deeper implications. However I was recently telling her how it's advisable to turn the Panda's key to the run position and watch for the little padlock light to go out before turning further to the position where the starter motor operates. I was explaining how this allows you to be certain the key chip and immobilizer in the car have recognized each other thus reducing the chances of a "failure to start". Oh, I understand, said she, just like the wee light on Tony's dashboard then? Tony was our old 1.9tdi Cordoba Diesel which had a glow plug light that had to go out before you tried to start - the light extinguishing confirming that the glow plugs in the cylinders were nice and hot! I considered trying to further enlighten her, but then thought, well, she's waiting till the light goes out so the aim is being achieved, why complicate it for no gain in outcome? Then it occurred to me that I've no idea what setting to put the washing machine on for different fabrics and also remember the famous occasion, many years ago living in digs in London, when I put my underclothes in with a bright red T shirt. I had pink pants for months after that!

Edit. I meant to say that my big old Bosch silver 77ah lead acid battery, which I kept after the Cordoba went to the happy hunting grounds as it was less than 2 years old at that time and now keep for jump starting, had gone a bit dead - even though I was charging it regularly. My CTEK battery charger has a "recond" program which is supposed to help revive "sick" batteries so I thought I'd try it and it responded very well recently helping to jump start my friend's Honda CRV with "Gusto"

 

[John202020]

For anything to be "on" they key must be in the ignition, surely when people park the car even in a garage who doesn't take the key out/with them?
Yes you can leave the side lights on but this requires a specific sequence to do so.

 

[John202020]

But then there's always the Bluetooth module?

 

[Gina500]

Not on ours, fortunately.
On the other hand, I don‘t understand why you need to turn ignition on to operate the windows or the roof. After many years of usage, I still think this is stupid design. But maybe it‘s just me…

 

[Ralf S.]

The windows and roof are "live" for about 20 seconds after you turn the ignition off, so that if you switch off and then realise they're still open, you can close them without turning the ignition back on/or putting the key back in.

If you open one of the doors, that timer is turned off.. which is how the Younger Mrs S. annoys me.. she's usually halfway out of the car while I'm still closing the driver's window that I left open...

The windows/roof are disabled with the ignition off because people used to leave their kids in the car and a few of them strangled themselves to death in the windows... Most windows now have a resistance sensor and will stop if you jam your neck in there (although I tried it one time with my arm, and I still wouldn't put a kid's neck in there).... and I dunno why anyone would leave kids unattended in a car... (although I frequently was... manual windows, but "live" lighter, which I did burn my fingers on.. ) but there you have it.


Ralf S.

 

[Gina500]

The windows and roof are "live" for about 20 seconds after you turn the ignition off, so that if you switch off and then realise they're still open, you can close them without turning the ignition back on/or putting the key back in.

That´s probably it - door gets opened first to unload stuff, and then "oh, forgot to close the roof", bugs will come in..

 

[chris3234]

Not on ours, fortunately.
On the other hand, I don‘t understand why you need to turn ignition on to operate the windows or the roof. After many years of usage, I still think this is stupid design. But maybe it‘s just me…

Because it hot weather people often leave windows open a little and somebody could then just open it fully with a big stick if they was allways live

 

[John202020]

I also believe the power steering works for 10 sec or so so you can lock the steering lock easily, seems that way on our car but maybe mistaken just seems very easy to move the wheel?

 

[portland_bill]

The windows/roof are disabled with the ignition off because people used to leave their kids in the car and a few of them strangled themselves to death in the windows... Most windows now have a resistance sensor and will stop if you jam your neck in there (although I tried it one time with my arm, and I still wouldn't put a kid's neck in there).... and I dunno why anyone would leave kids unattended in a car... (although I frequently was... manual windows, but "live" lighter, which I did burn my fingers on.. ) but there you have it.


Ralf S.

When the Tempra was a current car, a child got strangled in one when they pressed the one-shot close on a window, and couldn't then reach the button to open it. In the press, all the blame was directed at Fiat, none at the parents for leaving the child in the car. Even at that time, the windows only worked with the ignition on, so the child had been left in the car, with the key, but still it was Fiat's fault.
Fiat responded by removing the one-shot from all cars, and didn't bring them back in for a very long time.

 

[Ralf S.]

When the Tempra was a current car, a child got strangled in one when they pressed the one-shot close on a window, and couldn't then reach the button to open it. In the press, all the blame was directed at Fiat, none at the parents for leaving the child in the car. Even at that time, the windows only worked with the ignition on, so the child had been left in the car, with the key, but still it was Fiat's fault.
Fiat responded by removing the one-shot from all cars, and didn't bring them back in for a very long time.

I remember it as Tipo.. although it also affected a lot of other cars, and manufacturer's cars, since they used the same systems.. but it made "Watchdog" (or it may have been "That's Life") because Fiat's marketing slogan for Tipo was "Designed for Life", so BBC liked the slight irony that it was throttling kids.

But yes.. you reminded me about the ignition having to be on.. I thought at the time it seemed not too unreasonable a system...

I think we're just "wiser" now.. back in the day nobody had had their head stuck in a window, or had their kid set fire to their car via ciggie lighter. I remember my old dad used to change the wheel, using one of those pillar jacks that fit into a slot under the sills, even though we kids were in the car, and jumping around on the seats.


Ralf S.

 

[portland_bill]

Later thoughts, I think it was a Tempra, which would fit with the 'Tipo' idea. I'm sure it was a saloon, not a hatch. (Such detail seems to stick in my strange brain)
I did a search to see if I could find the story online, but it could be pre-internet. I did find similar occurrences involving a Skoda and Passat, but no big fuss for those.