Thank you for your reply Robert G8RPI. ...I appreciate your comments and detailed description..
Reading your replies so far.... It gives me some new details and info that was not aware about and maybe if what you suggest is correct... it may now be unikely that I will be able to resolve my problems unless I am willing to spend a certain ammount of money that I may consider could become more expensive than I am willing to spend on the car if say I was unable to deal with the thing myself and if I have to pay a mechanic to do it for me... as I suspect the computer side of analysing a car to rectify such possible faults is likely to be probably more expensive compared to what repairing an old car back over 20 years ago may had cost me if I was trying to resolve a similar ignition or starting problem..
Its times like this when I wished that I just had an older type car that I was more used to dealing with....and probably could have a chance of dealing with it myself or with an associate...
but I now get the impression that since they brought in Computers... that most car owners are now at the frustrations of having to pay more to have their or any similar related problems resolved at the hand of the garages rather than self analysis and self repair..Also that some may see it also as a type of big brother having now decided all our cars are now protected and connected by computers in one way or another...as I assume at higher costs...
unless what you suggest using the online links that you refer to can be done by Mr Average at lower cost expence.. than a local mechanic would cost to resolve or analyse ones car..
I think I get the impression that you seem to be quite knowledgable in ref to the technical side to the Computer systems now used in more modern cars over the last 20 years.
If it is some how possible for me to access
Multiecuscan and the Elm327 Interface... or get or find someone who may have access to it and who would be willing to maybe use it to take a look at my car with it... (Maybe one of the Mechanics local to me could do it cheaper than main garages ) then providing what it may cost to investigate... I may consider trying that approach...but I will have to consider if it would be worth doing based upon if its economical in ref to what I think it is worth to my present situation..
if what you describe can be obtained at low costs or mainly for free... (other than my time) and if I think its somethin that I could do... I think id be willing to give it go..
but I suspect that it will need someone who has a certain ammount of Higher level Technical knowledge or abilities such as a mechanic and is likely to cost a minimum of say 40 GBPs an hr.. that I did not really want to payout ..especially in the event that I still was unable to solve the problem as it would be added costs to what may still end up as just a car worth 80 to 100 GBP scrap value..
It is now concerning that my actions to mess around with the fusebox / computer / wire connetions etc may now have created further problems...
I did not realise that such actions may or could have created such further such concerns / issues ...
---------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------
I must admit to not having read the whole thread, but what you NEED to do is get decent diagnostics on the car to see what the various computers on the car "think" is going on. The security system is not in one box, it is in several modules and they must all have access to the validation data for the car to start. This is an electronic system, disconnecting, jumpering or shorting around modules like the "fuse box", actually the body computer, is likely to cause damage. It is quite possible you have more than one fault now.
You cannot "hot-wire" this car.
For diagnostics I highly recommend
Multiecuscan (
MES)
www.multiecuscan.net
You also need a Elm327 usb interface and a laptop.
An interface that works is
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/compatible-Fiat-Alfa-Lancia-diagnostic-ELM-327-OBD2-interface-fits-Multiecuscan/281166266540?
You cannot keep the car on the road or in a public car park unless it is taxed and insured. It has to be on private land. This has always been the case in the UK. If the police or the DLVA don't give you a ticket your local council is likely to tow it away and crush it.
Robert G8RPI.
---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
Your reply does seem to give me a good description as to how the Keycode computer system works compared to my prior basic understanding of how the older ignition starting systems worked...
Yes it does seem rather a much more complex system in todays more modern cars in comparision to the way the older cars could be analysed or ascessed and repaired or corrected in ref to getting the
ignition and starting system to become rectified and to get back working again...
For myself as much as I appreciate the security aspects on the cars modern computer systems.... It really does concern me just how now that to get ones car repaired or working again...
that it is no longer something any of us can do without having to involve using specilised equipment and having high technical knowledge..
I assume generally it is now much more expensive to resolve a cars damaged issues to do with ignition and starting problems compared to the older systems we had prior to computers came in..
but on average how the costs actually could compare... I am unsure...
or would you maybe disagree and say that there are still ways to rectify such problems as my present issues at a relatively low costs if you know how best to go about it and have access to
the required equipment to achive it such as laptop and software / interface etc...
-------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with Davren, you are getting too involved in details.
This car's ignition and security system IS NOT LIKE OLDER CARS. You CANNOT bypass the security with wires. Do not remove the steering lock. A brief description of how the security works is :
1/ There is a code chip embedded in the key
2/ A coil near the lock enegises the code chip and the lock node (electronics unit) reads the code. It also (dependent on exact model) allows the lock mode to engage the starter when the key is turned.
3/ If the code is one of those programmed in the lock node it passes the code and the lock nodes own code to the body computer node.
4/ If the lock and key codes match those programmed in the body computer. it pases the key code and the body computer code to the Engine Control Unit (ECU).
5/ If they match the codes programmed in the ECU it enables igntion and fuel injection.
if any of these steps fail the car won't start. Apart from faulty units the communication (CAN) may cause problems and my be a different unit on the CAN bus. You might have a faulty instrument cluster for instance. Just losing the CAN configuration can be an issue (there is a process called Proxi-Alignment that will reset this). Or as Davren says you could have a bad battery or broken connection.
This is somewhat generalised, it depends on the exct model and electronics units fitted.
Note that the key, the lock node, body computer and ECU are ALL coded. The codes in lock node, body computer and ECU are progrmmed by the factory and must match. You can't swap individual units between cars. If you want to replace one of these you have to order it from Fiat with the security details of the car (some repair companies can clone a partially faulty unit for some items).
Making ad-hoc modifcations to the wiring is making things much more difficult to sort out.
Robert G8RPI.
