Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
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Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Zeebo's explanation would fit the facts and certainly would explain why only some cars seem to be afflicted and to varying degrees.
Zeebo's explanation would fit the facts and certainly would explain why only some cars seem to be afflicted and to varying degrees.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
and if true it would be nothing to do with Euro 6 emissions
Could be something as simple as an assembly technician not using loctite on a stud if it was required.
and if true it would be nothing to do with Euro 6 emissions
Could be something as simple as an assembly technician not using loctite on a stud if it was required.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Be a bit of an embarassment to FIAT as a) smells of poor QC (unless it's an assembly issue rather than a "what are these bits left over" issue as Maxi says above) and b) owners finding the cure before FIAT....
Leaking just enough air not to trip a MIL but enough to screw things up?
Be a bit of an embarassment to FIAT as a) smells of poor QC (unless it's an assembly issue rather than a "what are these bits left over" issue as Maxi says above) and b) owners finding the cure before FIAT....
Leaking just enough air not to trip a MIL but enough to screw things up?
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
This is exactly the same as mine.I told the dealer about the missing bolt but they said there is not supposed to be one fitted and don't take note of whats on forums!
This is exactly the same as mine.I told the dealer about the missing bolt but they said there is not supposed to be one fitted and don't take note of whats on forums!
ZeeBo
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I wonder if theyve looked at the stud above the missing bolt and thought that was the the one you meant. The one I've circled 100% has to be there. Get them to recheck and show them which one you mean, the other missing bolt is under the manifold so I couldnt get a pic of that you need to use a mirror to see it (not see it?). Get them to check that one too. You should just be able to drive in and get it checked without an appointment.
Post a picture of your one if you can.
Im going to look at a 500 that I hired the week before I got my new one. It felt very under powered when I drove it, but I just put it down to it being low mileage.
I wonder if theyve looked at the stud above the missing bolt and thought that was the the one you meant. The one I've circled 100% has to be there. Get them to recheck and show them which one you mean, the other missing bolt is under the manifold so I couldnt get a pic of that you need to use a mirror to see it (not see it?). Get them to check that one too. You should just be able to drive in and get it checked without an appointment.
Post a picture of your one if you can.
Im going to look at a 500 that I hired the week before I got my new one. It felt very under powered when I drove it, but I just put it down to it being low mileage.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
There are some folks here who might say "don't take note of what's said by dealers".
Anyone else here got a faltering car and a missing bolt?
Or a faltering car with the bolt in place?
Or a car with a missing bolt that's running fine?
More data would be very useful.
There are some folks here who might say "don't take note of what's said by dealers"
.Anyone else here got a faltering car and a missing bolt?
Or a faltering car with the bolt in place?
Or a car with a missing bolt that's running fine?
More data would be very useful.
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ZeeBo
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
ok update time.
Today Ive been at my dealers to explain my findings. We looked at the 500's they have in stock and they're all missing the the bolts I've replaced.
I spoke to their techinician and he reckons that the missing bolts are a throw back to an earlier set up of the fire engine and should secure the manifold to a water jacket for a thermostat housing thats no longer used. This makes sense to me as I've replaced this housing before.
BUT Ive just been out for a bigger run in my car and it really is fixed. 40mph in fifth, no problem, over take on the motorway without changing down, yup can do, and pull away from a hill start with double dipping the clutch and revving like mad is now gone.
Now relooking at the manifold and the lay out of the bolt pattern, these missing bolts shouldn't really affect the manifold seals but I've fitted these bolts and to me my car feels like my old 500. Yeah its not an Abarth but when I go full throttle it now feels like its doing something not just waiting for me to change down a gear.
If anyone with this problem in the edinburgh/stirling area has this problem could you pm me to meet up and I can fit these bolts for you.
ok update time.
Today Ive been at my dealers to explain my findings. We looked at the 500's they have in stock and they're all missing the the bolts I've replaced.
I spoke to their techinician and he reckons that the missing bolts are a throw back to an earlier set up of the fire engine and should secure the manifold to a water jacket for a thermostat housing thats no longer used. This makes sense to me as I've replaced this housing before.
BUT Ive just been out for a bigger run in my car and it really is fixed. 40mph in fifth, no problem, over take on the motorway without changing down, yup can do, and pull away from a hill start with double dipping the clutch and revving like mad is now gone.
Now relooking at the manifold and the lay out of the bolt pattern, these missing bolts shouldn't really affect the manifold seals but I've fitted these bolts and to me my car feels like my old 500. Yeah its not an Abarth but when I go full throttle it now feels like its doing something not just waiting for me to change down a gear.
If anyone with this problem in the edinburgh/stirling area has this problem could you pm me to meet up and I can fit these bolts for you.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I wonder if removing / refitting the airbox etc sorted it and not the bolts?
I wonder if removing / refitting the airbox etc sorted it and not the bolts?
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
If they're just blind holes in the manifold that are no longer used, then it shouldn't make any difference whether there's a bolt there or not... but if the holes penetrate into the inlet (whether by accident or design), then they could let air leak into the manifold.
Fiat aren't known for their accuracy in machining, so it's possible that these holes could go through on some, but only some, of the cars... which at least would fit the facts as we know them so far.
If ZeeBo would be kind enough to temporarily remove those recently fitted bolts and see if the problem returned, that would give us a definite answer.
If they're just blind holes in the manifold that are no longer used, then it shouldn't make any difference whether there's a bolt there or not... but if the holes penetrate into the inlet (whether by accident or design), then they could let air leak into the manifold.
Fiat aren't known for their accuracy in machining, so it's possible that these holes could go through on some, but only some, of the cars... which at least would fit the facts as we know them so far.
If ZeeBo would be kind enough to temporarily remove those recently fitted bolts and see if the problem returned, that would give us a definite answer
.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Had another call today from Fiat Customer Services.They told me there is nothing wrong with the car, but it has to be driven in a different way.They also told me it is now a well known issue and there may be a fix in the future.
Had another call today from Fiat Customer Services.They told me there is nothing wrong with the car, but it has to be driven in a different way.They also told me it is now a well known issue and there may be a fix in the future.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
*facepalm* This is a focking joke..... Idiots....
*facepalm* This is a focking joke..... Idiots....
David Bliss
Member
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Hi boys,
I hope after today, when Fiat have taken a considerable amount of data about my car, as requested by VOSA, that something may give clues as how to resolve the problems. We will keep you posted.
After taking our car to other people for them to try driving it other things have been pointed out that I hadn’t picked up on. We all know that the engine increases its speed as the clutch is raised and then dies if you advance the throttle. Try this one, with the engine already hot use a piece of wood long enough to go between the seat and the throttle pedal, adjusted until it holds the engine revs at about 1500 (using the piece of wood eliminates the human factor) now depress the clutch pedal and let it up again. On my car doing this does not alter the revs, but the exhaust note changes from quiet to a very audible rasp, what is going on here? Another thing you can try is to apply the footbrake for a few seconds then depress the clutch pedal and let it up again, on my car the engine revs to not increase as they would have done had I not applied the brake. Evidently the brake is overriding the clutch recognition. I was also told that if I remove a certain fuse to disable the ABS system it would stop the clutch recognition. If you fool the ABS by spinning up the front wheels until the warning light appears this too will stop the clutch recognition while the light is still showing.
I am sick and tired of this continual ‘change your driving style’ or ‘learn to drive it’ response. Who would order one of these cars if the salesman said ‘If you get this model you might need to alter the way you drive’. My car has been back three times to the dealership for testing or re-mapping. What matters most is what goes on when it is on the road. I am also very tired of the way some people assume that just because you are complaining about the way the car drives you must have limited driving skills. For the record, over the years I have driven a multitude of vehicle and other machinery, including driving in challenging off-road conditions, without needing tuition to do so.
We were originally told that Fiat was working to produce a fix, as they said to Audit. If it is a software problem this can be done. However the lack low-down torque of the engine is extremely difficult do anything about. A complete re-design of the engine would be necessary.
I would really like one of these supposed experts, along with an independent person as witness, to drive my car on the roads that we usually drive on, this, after all, is where we encounter the problems.
[FONT="]It would be good if everyone who replies to a post made sure that they have carefully read the whole post before commenting, so they don’t jump to incorrect conclusions.[/FONT]
Hi boys,
I hope after today, when Fiat have taken a considerable amount of data about my car, as requested by VOSA, that something may give clues as how to resolve the problems. We will keep you posted.
After taking our car to other people for them to try driving it other things have been pointed out that I hadn’t picked up on. We all know that the engine increases its speed as the clutch is raised and then dies if you advance the throttle. Try this one, with the engine already hot use a piece of wood long enough to go between the seat and the throttle pedal, adjusted until it holds the engine revs at about 1500 (using the piece of wood eliminates the human factor) now depress the clutch pedal and let it up again. On my car doing this does not alter the revs, but the exhaust note changes from quiet to a very audible rasp, what is going on here? Another thing you can try is to apply the footbrake for a few seconds then depress the clutch pedal and let it up again, on my car the engine revs to not increase as they would have done had I not applied the brake. Evidently the brake is overriding the clutch recognition. I was also told that if I remove a certain fuse to disable the ABS system it would stop the clutch recognition. If you fool the ABS by spinning up the front wheels until the warning light appears this too will stop the clutch recognition while the light is still showing.
I am sick and tired of this continual ‘change your driving style’ or ‘learn to drive it’ response. Who would order one of these cars if the salesman said ‘If you get this model you might need to alter the way you drive’. My car has been back three times to the dealership for testing or re-mapping. What matters most is what goes on when it is on the road. I am also very tired of the way some people assume that just because you are complaining about the way the car drives you must have limited driving skills. For the record, over the years I have driven a multitude of vehicle and other machinery, including driving in challenging off-road conditions, without needing tuition to do so.
We were originally told that Fiat was working to produce a fix, as they said to Audit. If it is a software problem this can be done. However the lack low-down torque of the engine is extremely difficult do anything about. A complete re-design of the engine would be necessary.
I would really like one of these supposed experts, along with an independent person as witness, to drive my car on the roads that we usually drive on, this, after all, is where we encounter the problems.
[FONT="]It would be good if everyone who replies to a post made sure that they have carefully read the whole post before commenting, so they don’t jump to incorrect conclusions.[/FONT]
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
David, you do yourself no favors by making statements like "a complete redesign of the engine would be necessary" this is just not true in any way shape or form and you saying it doesn't make it true or right. The fact that others have the same engine and all is good shows that the engine DOES NOT have an inherent issue.
If you keep trying to point people in the wrong direction then you will keep going down dead ends. There is clearly something wrong with the engines fitted in some cars, this difference, whatever it is and however small it is should be identified.
I completely agree that changing your driving style is and should not be the answer, but you yourself seem to be also be playing your own part in being an obstacle in this.
I'll get flamed for this, but whatever......
David, you do yourself no favors by making statements like "a complete redesign of the engine would be necessary" this is just not true in any way shape or form and you saying it doesn't make it true or right. The fact that others have the same engine and all is good shows that the engine DOES NOT have an inherent issue.
If you keep trying to point people in the wrong direction then you will keep going down dead ends. There is clearly something wrong with the engines fitted in some cars, this difference, whatever it is and however small it is should be identified.
I completely agree that changing your driving style is and should not be the answer, but you yourself seem to be also be playing your own part in being an obstacle in this.
I'll get flamed for this, but whatever......
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Where are you though? I would be happy to give my impressions on your car, jrkitching would be a good bet also.
Where are you though? I would be happy to give my impressions on your car, jrkitching would be a good bet also.
Let's just make it clear, this statement from Fiat or any dealer is just 100% ******** and there's no need to go any further.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Hi Guys
I've been looking into the problem on our Panda and here's my take on it.
I think we're all agreed it's a mapping fault on the ECU, and its centred around the throttle and slow idle bypass controlling. For some reason the car goes to stall - you give it more pedal (instinct) the ECU eventually catches up and off you go in a flurry of revs and bad language :slayer:, Please feel free to correct if I'm wrong..
I've been working on this.
I think now they've leaned down the engine a little too far (for the old fire engine, bless it) And now its very sensitive to small changes in airflow, which is why I was originally interested in the missing bolt theory as it seem to fit, however plugging the holes didn't seem to help, But forgetting to put the slow idle intake back on the air box did.
I think there is a sudden drop in pressure in the air box and this stalls the air flow to the slow idle valve, the ECU tries to compensate but not before the driver has first.
What I've done is disconnect the pipe at the air box, plug the spigot where it came off and attached small high performance filter to the end of the pipe. (see photo) I've secured this in the engine compartment with a couple of strong magnets.
Now I'm not trying to say this is the fix but it makes a massive improvement to our car, Even Helen has noticed and she wouldn't normally notice if a wheel fell off. (backed into a post the other day didn't even know she'd done it:doh
Can someone else try this and see if they notice a difference too. I'm going to drive around with it on for a while to see if ECU tries to compensate for it.
I got the air filter of E-bay for 4 quid, the 9mm fitting as the pipe is a nice push fit into it with a little soap to help.
Cheers
Chris.
Hi Guys
I've been looking into the problem on our Panda and here's my take on it.
I think we're all agreed it's a mapping fault on the ECU, and its centred around the throttle and slow idle bypass controlling. For some reason the car goes to stall - you give it more pedal (instinct) the ECU eventually catches up and off you go in a flurry of revs and bad language :slayer:, Please feel free to correct if I'm wrong.
.I've been working on this.
I think now they've leaned down the engine a little too far (for the old fire engine, bless it) And now its very sensitive to small changes in airflow, which is why I was originally interested in the missing bolt theory as it seem to fit, however plugging the holes didn't seem to help, But forgetting to put the slow idle intake back on the air box did.
I think there is a sudden drop in pressure in the air box and this stalls the air flow to the slow idle valve, the ECU tries to compensate but not before the driver has first.
What I've done is disconnect the pipe at the air box, plug the spigot where it came off and attached small high performance filter to the end of the pipe. (see photo) I've secured this in the engine compartment with a couple of strong magnets.
Now I'm not trying to say this is the fix but it makes a massive improvement to our car, Even Helen has noticed and she wouldn't normally notice if a wheel fell off. (backed into a post the other day didn't even know she'd done it:doh
Can someone else try this and see if they notice a difference too. I'm going to drive around with it on for a while to see if ECU tries to compensate for it.
I got the air filter of E-bay for 4 quid, the 9mm fitting as the pipe is a nice push fit into it with a little soap to help.
Cheers
Chris.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Mutleysdad, can you take some photos of your engine bay? I want to see what differences there are if any
Mutleysdad, can you take some photos of your engine bay? I want to see what differences there are if any
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I've just booked in my Wife's 500 (2013, 1.2) for a safety recall (recall related to the steering column), and i asked about the throttle issue. Our 500 has been in twice already for smoke on startup, and has had an ecu update already, but still hasn't resolved the problem.
When i booked it in over the phone earlier, they said there is another ECU update which they will apply that will fix throttle issues, inparticular, loss of power when pulling away. He explained exactly what's been discussed in earlier posts regarding the clutch and anti-stall which this update will fix. So we're hoping to have a healthy 500 next weekend.
I'll have a look for these missing bolts mentioned earlier, if they appear after it's been in, then we'll know if Fiat are replacing these too.
I've just booked in my Wife's 500 (2013, 1.2) for a safety recall (recall related to the steering column), and i asked about the throttle issue. Our 500 has been in twice already for smoke on startup, and has had an ecu update already, but still hasn't resolved the problem.
When i booked it in over the phone earlier, they said there is another ECU update which they will apply that will fix throttle issues, inparticular, loss of power when pulling away. He explained exactly what's been discussed in earlier posts regarding the clutch and anti-stall which this update will fix. So we're hoping to have a healthy 500 next weekend.
I'll have a look for these missing bolts mentioned earlier, if they appear after it's been in, then we'll know if Fiat are replacing these too.
