Technical Engine Timing setup 1.4 8v VVT

[QuboPete]

Hi Guys

Massive thanks to Andy Monty for posting the timing tool instructions way back in 2015.

Just going through this myself with my 1.4 petrol Qubo with the 350A1000 VVT engine after a head gasket failure. Made and fitted a cam locking tool and a flywheel ring gear locking tool to lock the crankshaft before removing the belt and the head. I didn't remove the cam pulley and refitted the head with my cam locking tool in place and the ring gear lock (still) in place, and the cambelt went back on a treat.

Got rough running / hunting when I started the engine. Finally got some diagnostics hooked up which reported the cam timing being out. Having read further with much help from BugsyMike, the only logical explanation is that the camshaft pulley has moved relative to the cam whilst the head was disassembled, and / or the cam position sensor is misaligned.

The infuriating thing is that I had done the cambelt without any tools and without any problems about 2000 Miles before. I guess the cam sprocket simply didn't have the opportunity to move relative to the cam in the short time the belt was off.

Sourced a locking kit which came without any instructions but it looks very much like the kit Andy had. Going for 'take 2' today and will post the results and any tips I find.

Qubo Pete

 

[GrandePunto PL]

If you read any Guide, read Discussion section too, there is a lot of additional info (sometimes better than the Guide).
https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.237966/page-2

Official "eLearn" procedure contains error (setting the timing at maximum tension, then releasing until "forks" line up = timing shift!).
Plus, many people are clueless, they can't grasp the concepts, they don't see things moving while cranking the bolts = P0016 error.
They just crank the bolt like a monkey and act "surprised" later.

ALL timing belt procedure steps can give a few degrees out. Most of those inaccuracies/shifts will add up.
And folks will never accept that they've made mistake. If you mention it, it's over, forum thread dies...
Analyze this: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/the-old-p0016.510767/

 

[QuboPete]

Hi GrandPunto PL

Many thanks for the two links which I have read; but, first, as promised, my results from 'take 2' today.

Followed the Sealey instructions on the use of my timing kit I bought from Ebay - Item 176422292125 for £19.99, as the kit looked like it contained all the requisite components.

The Instructions require loosening of the cam pulley from the cam. Thought it best to use a 15/16" open end spanner to hold the hex on the cam whilst attempting to slacken the T55 Torx camshaft bolt. It was immediately obvious that the bolt was very tight, and there was a significant risk of chewing up the Torx bolt head. To minimize this I made up and fitted a (1) a tie bar to fix the end of the spanner to the front of the body and (2) a ferrule to centralize and support the 1/2" drive Torx bit against the housing for the cover cap on the inside of the pulley. I also refitted the cylinder head engine mount to reduce lost motion. The bolt took quite a shove with an 18" knuckle bar attached to the bit before it loosened.

Spanner and Tie Bar

Torx Bit Ferrule

I then followed the Sealey instructions, but realized that the initial stated torque figure for the bolt at 180-220 NM was obviously an error - my 1/2" drive 18" torque wrench only goes to 200 NM. I tried this in the vice and it was obviously far too much even without the +55 degrees final tighten. Information from BugsyMike from Autodata gave 18-22 NM plus 55 Degrees. Used a degree gauge and it felt plenty tight enough to me.

Degree guage

When I came to use the lock tools it looked like I had found the error from Take 1. The crank tool was about 40 degrees short of going onto the 6mm lower cam belt guard bolt post requiring the crank to be moved by that amount in the direction of engine rotation. Everything fell into place and I was convinced I had sorted it.

Crankshaft Locking Tool Shortfall

Alas it was not to be - engine sounded just the same as it did before - hunting. Thought it may need to relearn so followed the Sealey instructions but to no avail.

Not had the diagnostics on it again, but I will first repeat the timing procedure tomorrow after reading and digesting all the helpful guidance from GrandPunto.

It would be useful to know the default position of the VVC pulley when the engine is at rest in relation to its normal running position although I see from the information that there are several positions.

Thanks for all your help and watch this space for Take 3.

Qubo Pete

 

[jackwhoo]

Did you manage to loosen the cam sprocket bolt then fit the crank lock tool correctly , the cam lock tool correctly at the same time as each other?
Then tension the belt correctly?
Then tighten the cam sprocket bolt correctly?
Then recheck special locking tools refitted correctly together?

 

[QuboPete]

Hi Jackwhoo

Many thanks for your response.

My answer to all your queries is 'I think so'. Certainly, I carried out the final check after tightening everything up and rotating the engine 2 complete revolutions as recommended. The crank lock tool and the cam end slot lock tool fitted in just fine.

Just done the post mortem on Take 2. I now find that, with the cam end slot lock tool in place, the crank lock tool is about 40 Degrees past going onto the 6mm lower cam belt guard bolt post - i.e. the cam is now about 40 crankshaft degrees retarded.

Crankshaft Locking Tool Run Past

As I see it, there are only 2 logical explanations for the discrepancy from the assumed* correct position it was set to yesterday:-

1) *The cam sprocket has settled in a different position relative to the cam after actuation of the VVC mechanism from running the engine.​

2) The VVC pulley has slipped on its mounting position on the cam end due to incorrect assembly.​

*In the current absence of any information on how the VVC pulley defaults at rest (hypothesis 1), I will concentrate my efforts on hypothesis 2 paying particular attention to assembly guidance from other posts - particularly those from GrandPunto PL. A slip is likely to produce a retarded cam error so that is encouraging.

I will report back after Take 3, but if anything more occurs to you guys out there please speak up!

Best wishes and thanks again for your inputs.

Qubo Pete

 

[GrandePunto PL]

This is almost beyond my imagination. HOW can you be so much off. This job is too complicated for you. Logical conclusion. First impression.

Your spanner gizmo is not stiff enough, so camshaft can move.
This is my prototype, idea (first iteration). To lock the camshaft rock solid (almost).

Proper size is 15/16" (23,8 mm). Metric 24 mm can slip/skip. Tool is crucial during assembly (VVT disassembly is a secondary goal).

Timing tool should be in place. But protected by this gizmo above. So you don't damage the tool (or worst, camshaft and/or engine head).

The VVT bolt is torque + angle = might be not reusable (should use brand new one). Procedure like a head gasket (bolts are lubricated).
T55 pockets in the bolts are shallow. To prevent stripping the T55 bit, you can stiffen the setup like that (use big, long clamp to hold the bit).

Your use of VVT locking tool was improper. Orientation. It goes like that...

But this is almost useless tool, because too much play between the teeth. Another source of small shift (if someone is chasing single degrees).

Are you familiar with the FIRE family issue with crankshaft wheels/cogs/pegs? The key feature will rust and break. Part is porous. This must be inspected during the timing belt job = if you see rust, you have a problem son.

Besides that, incompetent "mechanic" can damage good part (there is not much rust on example below)...

If you touch this cog, it must be secured with timing belt tool and the crankshaft itself must be locked somehow. Another tool or via gearbox engaged (and then you hold the axle nut or brake disc).

All bolts must be installed. Check the timing belt Guide, Discussion. Bolt hole pattern here is NOT 120 degrees.

Some timing belt tools are not that good, so the bolts don't fit well, therefore some people do this job like that (bolts loose/missing). Wrong!

Official procedure is a bit wrong (but still under P0016 threshold). Tension affects the timing. But not so much like you did (or you did ALL possible mistakes at once and they added up).

At least some instructions say to replace the VVT bolt (although the top drawing here is non VVT unit)...but rest is a Copy&Paste from "eLearn".

Next time try to setup the timing with the final tension (don't alter it during the job).

Again. Tell me HOW is that possible...? Are you trying to mix "TDC" position to this job? Top dead centre has nothing to do here in VVT engine!
Well, it has something to do = timing is set 90-ish degrees after TDC. And you're somewhere in between in this picture...

Mind, you're right on the edge of damaging the engine...

Stop and think twice before you progress. You are doing something (very, terribly) wrong.

What else could go wrong here. For example timing belt guiding by the water pump. It can be faulty or installed incorrectly (for example if you let the RTV sealant cure before you torque the pump bolts/nut, it will seat crooked/tilted, so the belt will try to jump out from the VVT wheel).

Is your VVT any good? Is it locked when stationary? You can check the lock with compressed air. Trip open and then move the wheel by hand. When you release the pressure, the VVT should come back and click locked (with a little bit internal slack, that's natural). Video is a mock-up (no valves in the head), in reality camshaft will not move like that of course.

 

[QuboPete]

Hi GrandPunto PL

Many thanks for your helpful advice. That cam locking jig is an impressive piece of toolmaking.

Decided to remove the VVT pulley altogether, empty the oil and wash it through. The securing bolt was very tight so I doubt the pulley had slipped on the cam. I then did a temporary install on the cam to test the pulley with compressed air. It functioned just as shown on your video clip returning and locking in its rest position when the air pressure was released.

I then went for reassembly with the mounting flange degreased and the pulley in the rest position. Locked the crank with the tool and the slotted cam end with the plate tool. Set the cambelt tension for running rather than maximum then tightened the Torx cam pulley bolt. I didn't use the crude VVT pulley tooth lock for fear of (1) damaging a tooth on the wheel and / or (2) dragging the pulley from its rest position wrt the cam; instead, I stiffened up my 15/16" locking bar to improve its rigidity in compression (rather than in tension when undoing the bolt) and used that to hold the cam during tightening.

Cam Holder (Tightening Mode)

The result? - running a little better but still hunting for a steady tickover. Need to get the diagnostics on it again for a live cam timing check. I'm convinced that I have set it correctly at least with respect to the crank and cam locked by the tools and with the VVT in the rest position. I'm not sure however that it will necessarily return to the rest position when the VVC pulley is full of oil and the cam box is in place. It maybe that the shift in the static crank v cam position lock positions I noted on 'Take 2' wasn't an error at all.

Time to bite the bullet, upgrade my ageing and impossibly slow PC to a new laptop and invest in a MultiECUScan package. Guessing this is the one to have:-

MultiECUScan USB Diagnostic Package for Fiat / Alfa Romeo / Lancia cars (Single PC)

MultiECUScan USB Diagnostic Package for Fiat / Alfa Romeo / Lancia cars (Single PC) - only £129.95 including VAT & UK delivery!

www.gendan.co.uk

Possibly along with the SGM bypass.

I'll keep you all posted. Good job I decided to look after my mate's 20 year old Berlingo whilst he's abroad for 6 months. Fabulous vehicle - knocks spots of the Qubo in every area that interests me. Perhaps not an entirely fair comparison as the Citroen was more of a mid-market rather than a budget car. It used to be mine but I bought the much newer Qubo to save spannering time on my daily driver - that plan hasn't worked out too well!

Thanks again.

QuboPete

 

[jackwhoo]

Have you cleaned the vvt solenoid valve?

 

[jackwhoo]

Perhaps use a wooden dowl or some such through spark plug holes to check hieghts of pistons are all the same with crank locking tool in place-will give idea if crank sprocket key not damaged .

 

[QuboPete]

Hi Jackwhoo

I did and the filter guaze was quite dirty. I was beginning to wonder whether I've washed some grit into a vital part. Thanks for the tip. At least its something than can be removed and installed / replaced very easily.

Guess the crank lock is meant to stop the crank at mid stroke, but yes will check that, and thanks.

Oh - just to compare war wounds with GrandPunto PL - 1956 BSA Gold Star dropped inlet valve on a French autoroute. No phone, no map, no clue where I was. A rare roadside phone full of spiders, and a smattering of O level French saved me - a character forming experience!

 

[GrandePunto PL]

To check the crankshaft key, see if the TDC mark on the flywheel matches the notch in the phonic wheel.

"Triangle" should be Up when it's TDC cylinder 1 (and 4).

You could also turn the engine from TDC to +90 degrees ("eye ball" it) and see via camshaft sensor hole, if the "reluctor" arms are visible like that (big/wide one, then you should spot the edge of the next, small/narrow one). Rough check if the timing is OK.

Then, the cylinders should be equal, same level. Sparkplug holes are "crooked", each has different angle, but you can still tell the level/height of the pistons. This is the main purpose of the timing tools = to be in the middle stroke and avoid collision during the job.

In general timing (of the working engine) can be judged by the OBD2 data. Good timing is about 106 degrees (VVT1 position) with small tolerance (2-3 degrees is OK). The VVT operation is judged by camshaft parameters and percentage. At idle everything should be about 0 (zero degrees and zero percent), otherwise VVT is blocked (dirty) or malfunctioning (or there is a shift in the timing and VVT system tries to correct this with VVT wheel, you'll see rubbish like 30-40% at idle). The VVT works from 3000 RPM, at idle it shifts the camshaft about -10 degrees = simple "test" without driving the car (when you actually drive, the shift will be more according to power demand and emissions = main reason VVT was introduced to engines in general).

Bad timing also makes other parameters shift, for example ignition advance (normally it's a few degrees, positive, 5-10 degrees range), if there is a problem you'll see stupid numbers like negative 30 or so.

FIRE family engines are also present in other car brands like Ford. Here is an example of bad timing (precisely one tooth off) showing as a VVT shift...

If you see "nice" number like that, compare it to the number of teeth and 360 degrees in the circle. Crankshaft cog has 23 teeth, so 360/23 = 15,6 degrees, rounded 16 (VVT is 46 teeth, so 7,8 deg. per tooth, but must do x2 anyway, so same result = 16). And then you see shift like that via OBD. Connect the dots.

As for clicking noise, the most common fault is leaky exhaust manifold, studs (you can mistake it with engine noise, "valves" etc.).
Next thing is faulty VVT wheel. Natural wear makes the oil leak down during the night. Normally, when you start the car it clicks few seconds and goes away (if not, it's a really bad VVT). To check this, inspect the VVT plug next morning after test drive = it should spill the oil. If it's empty next day = it's a trash. Noise should go away as soon as you reach 3000+ RPM, at least temporary. Don't have to drive, just rev it.

Check also the oil delivery to the VVT, "o-rings" in the valve cover. And inspect the VVT solenoid valve. At least with the 12V source. Ideally PWM driver like that, so you can really control the valve (this is proportional valve, not just ON/OFF switch).

Valve can be dismantled and cleaned.

Fine example of a trashy engine (and the owner). Abused/neglected car. "Long-life" oil changes etc. Looks like a toilet in "Trainspotting" movie.

 

[QuboPete]

Hi GrandePunto PL

I cannot thank you enough for all your advice. I have printed it out and will go through all the checks you have recommended.

Regards

QuboPete

 

[GrandePunto PL]

The VVT works from 3000 RPM, at idle it shifts the camshaft about -10 degrees

Not "at idle", but in (or from) 2000-3000 RPM range (and car stationary) = -10 degrees or so (and 30-40%). At idle (700 rpm) it's zero (deg.) & zero (%).
Just an example data, "rev-up" (this is not perfect car by any means, just starts and drives well, therefore data is plausible) and VVT response.

Note, that OBD2 data has a delay, lag. The more parameters you watch at once, more sluggish the update (refresh rate) is. Sometimes there is no logical connection between cause and effect (you can get silly data, plot/graph, where the throttle/butterfly opens right before you step on the "gas" pedal).
That's why real-deal Diagnostics is done using oscilloscope (plus various probes, transducers). Mechanical issues too (like timing, cracked "keys" also).
Example: https://www.youtube.com/c/AutomotiveTestSolutions/videos (and many other YouTubers: Scanner Danner, Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics etc.).

 

[QuboPete]

Hi GrandPunto PL

Thanks again, I'm quite a novice when it comes to modern auto electrics. A set of points and a condenser is more my level.

Cam timing used to be such fun...

Now it feels like Magneti Marelli -v- QuboPete. 1/2 time score is 3-0 to MM. The fightback has started - just shelled out on a modern laptop.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

In a spare time, take a look at this old PDF (Italian service manual from 2004). Big file (125 MB).
► http://download.fiatforum.bg/Books/Grande_Punto/Fiat_Grande_Punto_Service_Manuale.pdf ◄
"F.I.R.E." family is easy. Simple engines from 1980's (based on even older units from late 70's, models like Ritmo, 127), introduced in "Uno".
There was mechanical distributor back then and carburetor or SPI right away (single point injection that mimics it), I don't remember.
Now it's an ECU controlling the coils, injectors + few sensors and VVT (simple variation of the system).
Mechanical basics still apply here. And workshop techniques (so nothing moves/shifts while you torque a bolt, for example).
Your problem is mechanical (so not "Magneti-Marelli" related)..."modern laptop" alone will not solve it.

Just for the record. Data log (real purpose of the OBD2, emissions control and data analysis, not just erasing fault codes), test drive and VVT operation.

 

[QuboPete]

Hi GrandPunto PL

A belated thank you - been sorting out my new laptop. Just managed to get it working properly tonight.

The laptop package arrived from Gendan today too. Its going to be a steep learning curve!

Appreciate your comments about my problem being mechanical, and your Data log is really interesting. The camshaft position traces confirm what I had gleaned in that the default cam position at tickover is fully advanced, and the VVC mechanism only ever retards the cam from that position. My theory is if:- (1) the cam and the crank are locked in the timing positions by the locking tools; (2) the VVC pulley is set in the fully retarded position, and; (3) the front run of the timing belt is taut, the cam timing has to be right within a few degrees.

Yes interesting history to this venerable old engine undertandibly designed prioritising ease of manufacture. Seems it started life as nominal 0.75L in the old Panda and finished up being stretched to a nominal 1.4 - maybe a stretch too far. A head gasket failure at 60,000 Miles isn't good even by Rover K series standards. Quite a contrast to the 1.4 TU Peugeot in my Berlingo - the best sidedraft SOHC 2V head I have seen. I think the Peugeot engineers sneaked that one past the accountants.

Working up to attempt #4....

Thanks again for all your help.

QuboPete

 

[QuboPete]

Hi all

Interesting day setting up the MultiECUScan software. An Eiger Nordwand of a learning curve for me!

Swapped out the VVT Solenoid valve (thanks again to Jackwhoo) and deleted a random error code relating to the tank vent valve. The cam position error code defied all attempts to delete. Disconnected the cam position sensor and battery, reconnected, and started her up. Ran perfectly well and I managed to eventually delete the cam position error code. Now running with no errors. Not done a test drive yet, but I'm cautiously calling the new score Magneti Marelli 3 - QuboPete 1.

Still figuring out how to view and graph the live data. Will do a further post when I have.

Thanks again to all contributors, particularly GrandePunto PL, for his learned advice and excellent illustrations.

QuboPete

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Fix This first.

Then figure out the OBD2 stuff.

 

[QuboPete]

Hi all

Thanks to GrandePunto PL's tips and guidance earlier, I fixed the mechanical problem - see my post of 5/1/25.

She now appears to be running fine with no errors after swapping out the VVC actuator (thanks also to Jackwhoo) and deleting the error codes. There is a good match between the cam position and the desired cam position shown by the MultiECUScan data, and the actuator appears to be doing its stuff by moving the VVC pulley at least in response to RPM changes (see graph below).

Not quite sure what the % figure for the VVT phase variator represents. It must be a percentage of something, and must ultimatly be translateable into movement of the valve timing measured in crankshaft degrees.

I realise that there are other variables involved in actuation of the VVC pulley. Due to insurance headaches I haven't road tested yet but I am cautiously confident she will be OK.

I remain unsure what eventually fixed the rough running (see my 5/1/25 post). Perhaps the VVC solenoid valve had developed a fault during removal / reinstallation, or maybe the ECU just needed to sort itself out again after I had run it earlier with a mechanical cam timing error:

I think learning points from my experience so far are:-

1) For a routine cam belt change on an engine that's running OK*, providing the correct locking tools for the crank, cam end slot, and the VVC Pulley are installed before slackening of the belt tensioner / removal of the old belt, and are left in place whilst the new belt is fitted, there should be no need to 'open a jar of worms' by undoing the VVC pulley bolt (contrary to advice given by the locking tool suppliers) .

2) For a cylinder head removal job (e.g. for a head gasket) on an engine that is otherwise running OK*, removal, draining cleaning and testing (1) the VVC pulley and (2) the VVC actuator is adviseable. Slackening and retigtening of the VVC pulley retaining bolt to the correct torque should be done after locking the camshaft with an open end 15/16" spanner on the camshaft hexagonal journal, with the free end of the spanner locked and pretensioned against something solid by way of a brace. Do not use the VVC Pulley locking tool for this purpose. The cleaned and drained VVC pulley should be in its tested naturally locked rest position (i.e. fully advanced) with the tensioned belt and the crank and the cam end slot locking tools in place whilst the VVC pulley bolt is tightened against the braced cam.

*For a unknown quantity / a non-runner all the preliminary checks recommended by GrandePunto PL are all great advice.

Thanks to all contributors

Kind regards

QuboPete

 

[GrandePunto PL]

I still don't see any real (full) conclusions. What was wrong with the engine or "mechanic" while performing the timing belt job?
1. How was this position achieved? Explain. Step by step.

Then this one. How? Clarify the "procedure" that leads to such enormous shift the other way.

VVT solenoid (and cam sensor) has nothing to do with the timing (during belt job). VVT wheel maybe (but you should notice, when something is off - for example it is not locked in default "home" position, but you ignore it or miss it completely and continue to work, then maybe, timing will float, drift).