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Technical Engine swap, 16v question

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Technical Engine swap, 16v question

Would you know if the stock fuel pump would be able to push a 0.3 - 0.5 bar boost setup, and whether i'll need bigger injectors or will megasquirt be able to open the injectors that i currently have for long enough to supply enough fuel, but not burn the injectors due to long PWM duty cycle?
 
nmrmak said:
Would you know if the stock fuel pump would be able to push a 0.3 - 0.5 bar boost setup, and whether i'll need bigger injectors or will megasquirt be able to open the injectors that i currently have for long enough to supply enough fuel, but not burn the injectors due to long PWM duty cycle?
Click to expand...

Pump, I honestly don'y know..

Injectors, they flow about 200/cc on the 1.2 16v. I think you would want bigger, though i know nothing about turbos. You could try them, see how they cope, and upgrage

http://www.mmcompsys.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/PICO_01.pDF

IWP043 are 329cc and are the same package as the 1.2 16v's. Not sure what cars they are in though, and are about £50 each new!
 
My knowledge of Punto engines isn't really great, so i have another question:
I've noticed a number of Punto ELX 16v cars out there and i'm wondering if that's the same engine as the Punto sporting. Both are 1.2 16v engines as far as i know.

Might be a lot easier to source one of those. Maybe i should be posting this in the punto section?
 
That'll make sourcing it a lot easier, thanks!
I'm ordering MS in a few days (but it will only arrive in about 40 days or so because of shipping complications). Once it's wired in and i manage to get the current engine working on it, i'll get the 16v engine and drop it in :D

Thanks for the help again :)
 
It would be great if someone could rename this to something like "sei 1.2 16v project", just to aid people looking for info.

An update: since the last post, the car got rear disk brakes, 195 wheels on 14" rims and i've successfully assembled megasquirt and am testing it on the bench, trying to get wasted spark to work with ms2extra code. I also got some parts such as a WB lambda with a controller, a relay board, jimstim, some guages i'll need in the tuning/assembling process, and a water temp guage. Lowering springs and poly bushes are on their way as i'm writing this and will arrive in 2 weeks. Also, i've found 3 places that have the engine i'm after, a bit pricey though, but i'll survive.

This is all taking a lot more time than i expected, the availability of parts is poorer than i thought it would be, the time i have to wait for some parts to arrive is longer than i thought (i had to wait 2 months for MS to arrive because of awful shipping combinations), i have less time than i thought i'd have and so on, but i'm still enthusiastic about this project and highly optimistic.

Next step is putting the MS into the car and making it work on the stock engine (thanks for the idea, kritip) so i can see if the electronics part is okay before i proceed.

After i have the engine, there will probably be a period of silence on my side because i'll want to do a complete overhaul on it and after that have the head chambers machined to lower the compression slightly as a part of turbo preparations before the engine is in, and from previous experiences, it's gonna take time. After that, i'll have to make a fully custom exhaust system because of the turbo (custom exhaust manifold, turbo flange, then the turbo-back system, no cat). While that's being done, i'll fit the springs, bushes and adjustible koni suspension that i got a nice deal on.

I've managed to find a good source of turbos, but i'll only buy that after the engine is in and running first (and after i get used to 30 more hp in the car ;))

Step by step...It's going to be a slow project because i can't dedicate 100% of my time to it, but i'm hoping that by the next summer i'll have a working car... almost 6 months more than i originally thought it'd take me.

All comments and suggestions are always welcome. I'd like to thank everyone here for all the knowledge i was able to gain with their help. (y)
 
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Update: Just bought an engine 3 hours ago. I'll take pics as soon as i get it into my flat (yes, i'm crazy like that). The idea is to see what i'm missing (like an inlet manifold / throttle body) and go buy that stuff, and in the meantime have the engine fully reconditioned. I might need a little help with this beauty, because i don't know the ins and outs of it (i'm only semi-good at 1.1 8v), so i might ask a few questions in the next few days.

Any idea what to do about the exhaust manifold, as i want to turbo it? Will i have to custom make it or can i bodge something from a different car?

P.S. I'm so happy :D
 
Hey, sorry for posting a few times in a row, but i was ecstatic about the engine, and i couldn't wait until i got some pics.

The engine is complete with a wiring loom, all sensors and flywheel/clutch.

I noticed a sensor near the oil pump, is that an oil temp or oil pressure sensor? Anyone know the specs on it?

Here's one pic for now, the engine seems to be in good shape, no rust in the inlets and hopefully none in the cylinders either, i'll have to open it to see though. It will go to an engine shop anyway, to get the whole thing refurbished (unless you guys can convince me i could do it myself :))
 

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You'll almost certainly find that 195/45/14 fit fine without attention to the wheelarches.

You could possibly adapt the existing mani to take a turbo, but it's not the prefered option, either for performance or reliability. Easier to make one up from schedule 30 pipe (mild steel) although it can be got in stainless (used for high pressure gas/steam fittings, can buy the bends).

Getting the CR right will be interesting, especially if it's a SuperFIRE engine (alloy sump). Some generic ideas on the Ferriday site.

Power requirements are a bit low: a decent 1108 high boost turbo will make 115, a very good one 130.
 
Yes, they fit fine, I have some rubbing with full right lock at the ARB, but that will be fixed with some spacers at the front.

Concerning the manifold, i've heard of one guy that does them so i'll check with him about the pricing and so on. If he's too expensive for my budget (spent more than 1k eur on this car already with more to come) then i'll try making it with a mate.

Getting the CR right will be tricky, yeah. I've heard that i can't just get a spacer gasket, beacuse it'll throw timing off (no idea where i've heard that), so i might have to machine down one of the tensioners if that happens. Also, i'll try removing some material from the combustion chamber, along with de-shrouding the valves if possible (haven't opened it yet and i've never seen a 16v head before)

What would you suggest as a sensible low-mid boost power output?

Thanks!

EDIT: P.S. The engine came from a punto, so it's fire, not superfire, right? If it's a superfire i might have a problem with the engine mounts?
 
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SuperFIRE will fit fine (the give away is the alloy sump) -- all the 1.4 conversions use them. But -- with the exception of the turbos -- have a high CR.

Best to get a scrap head if you're looking at enlarging the combustion chamber -- you don't want to break into the water/oil galleries. You'll probably have to do some sort of 3 fronted exercise on the head, gasket and pistons (or go forged or -- maybe, dunno if they'll fit -- 1.4 turbo pistons).

I'd say 125/130 bhp would be fairly easy -- those engines are said to do rods if pushed much over 140bhp.
 
The sump seems alloy-ish, could take a pic of some part of the engine if that would help someone ID it. It sounds thin when knocked on, so i guess alloy. To be honest, i'm a noob for 16vs by fiat, but i'm more than willing to learn :)

I'll look into forged pistons, thanks for the idea. They will be hard to find on a scrappie for sure, but worth a shot.

If i get a scrap head for exercising, i promised i'd make a cross-section of it and take pics for you guys. But who knows, maybe a thicker headgasket will be enough to lower the CR enough.

So much research left to do... :)
Thanks for helping me through it.
 
FIRE = 8v
SuperFIRE = 16v

So that's a SuperFIRE and will fit using the mounts off your old engine. Is it from a late(er) Punto, or a Brava/o? The coil pack is like that off a bravo 80sx, but i dont know the setup on the newer Puntos

The sensor near the oil pump should be pressure, and same as the one found on the Sei.
 
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The breaker said it came from a punto. as far as i know, brava/o engine have a cam sensor and this one doesn't, so i guess it's a punto one.

Thanks for the explanation of (super)FIRE differences, didn't know that tbh :eek:
Since megasquirt doesn't have an oil pressure input, i'll see what i can do to hook it up to a LED at least so i can have some indication if the oil pressure drops (oil sloshing about in the sump could possibly be one reason)
 
ahh, looking at the images on s4p - the punto mk2 has the same coil pack. the brava 80sx i did an engine swap on did not have a cam sensor, but they're all pretty much the same engine anyway (the brava eneded up with a mk1 punto sporting engine in it!)
 
nmrmak said:
Getting the CR right will be tricky, yeah. I've heard that i can't just get a spacer gasket, beacuse it'll throw timing off (no idea where i've heard that), so i might have to machine down one of the tensioners if that happens. Also, i'll try removing some material from the combustion chamber, along with de-shrouding the valves if possible (haven't opened it yet and i've never seen a 16v head before)

EDIT: P.S. The engine came from a punto, so it's fire, not superfire, right? If it's a superfire i might have a problem with the engine mounts?
Click to expand...


The timing will be ffine with a spacer. On this engine you have a cam locking tool, and the cam pulley is floating, bit like a cernier pulley, so they timing won't be affected.

See http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1904&p=10074#p10074 re combustion shaping. Thats a thread i started.

Engine moutns will be fine. You can unbolt that bit one, and fit the cento mount in it's place. There are then possible alt belt fouling issues, all of which are covered in my thread. Theres the cheap version or the tidy version :D

I posted links to pistons the other day as well. Can't be arsed to dig the thread up.

Kristian



EDIT -- PS . there is no mount you need to cut off on that engine. The mounts will just bolt off :) I was just unlucky on mine lol
 
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Glad to hear that, iirc you spent 3-4 grinder-happy hours with it :D
Also, glad to hear spacing out the head won't be a big timing issue :)

Yeah, i know about the alt belt issue, i might do it your way (making an adapter plate to put the sensor out a bit further) or i might try using a different sensor mount (oil filter casing from the sei? might work, will see when i have the engine out :))

Do you think i can keep the sei alternator and starter or will i need 16v parts? Looking to save a bit on it if possible.

Thanks!

EDIT: Kristian, I can't see from your pics, did you use the top engine mount after cutting the old one off at all?
 
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