Technical Engine problem need help

[Gandalf500]

Hi there,

My 500 has suddenly developed an engine problem.

It started yesterday, a sort of whistle sound, it would happen when i accelerated with clutch engaged.
today it suddently got a lot worse.

It sounds like a knocking rattling, whistling sound. And i could feel the knocking through my foot and throughout the car. I thought the exhaust came off or something. I managed to get home. I had a look at the engine and noticed the below bolt hanging out, also looked like the belt behind was wobbling.

anyone got any advice, I'm going to get it to a garage, but would be nice to gett some advise before hand.

 

[John202020]

Tighten the bolt back up before moving, looks like the engine bracket but not sure it's also very close to the cam belt by the looks

 

[Gandalf500]

Tighten the bolt back up before moving, looks like the engine bracket but not sure it's also very close to the cam belt by the looks

I tried tightening the bolts by hand, but they're not biting on the thread. I was able to easily remove one, it's not sheard or broken from what i can see. Maybe that part had moved and the holes aren't aligning.

 

[John202020]

Don't drive it with the bolts missing,think you're right re not aligned has any work been done at that end recently like cam belt?

 

[Gandalf500]

Don't drive it with the bolts missing,think you're right re not aligned has any work been done at that end recently like cam belt?

no not had any work done. MOT is due soon, so i guess I'll get it checked out when i give it for that.

 

[irc]

Looks like problem i came across on a 100hp.
Threads stripped in block.
Engine dropped down while being driven, trashing the cam belt.
Not sure what or who caused the original problem but it led to a 7 hour recovery and a replacement engine.
No recent work which would have involved the engine mount, so could have been like it for over a year before it let go.
2 bolts still had the thread from the block attached when removed, the third had no thread on the end at all.
Definitely would advise not driving until checked and sorted.

 

[jrkitching]

There's more than one loose bolt in that picture.

Looks like the rigid part of the engine support bracket, see diagram below. You need to gain proper access to check all four securing bolts.

If this were my car, I'd support the engine as if changing the timing belt and remove the flexible engine mounting (again, the one you take off when changing the belt). This should enable you to see what's going on. I'd then remove the rigid part of the bracket, check all the threads, and providing all four bolts and their threads are undamaged, replace it and tighten it back up to the torque setting given the table below. Then replace the flexible part of the engine support bracket and all should be well.

 

[varesecrazy]

Cambelt removal in recent weeks is the #1, suspect there I'm afraid

From memory they are a 15 or 16 mm Hexagon on the bolt.. And awkward to access

(see my Guide in the Panda section)

If it's down to a failed repair.. Get them to recover it

Otherwise it's got potential to fail.. And damage things

Do tell us more.

 

[jrkitching]

Cambelt removal in recent weeks is the #1, suspect there I'm afraid

That's what I'd have thought, too. Someone removed it to change the belt and forgot to tighten it properly on reassembly.

 

[varesecrazy]

no not had any work done. MOT is due soon, so i guess I'll get it checked out when i give it for that.

Are you equipped and capable the check other bolts are tight..?


I wouldn't want to risk a belt failure..

Could easily run up an £800 bill on a VVT motor.

 

[jrkitching]

I wouldn't want to risk a belt failure

No more would I.

Attempting to move this car under its own power in this condition is madness.

MOT is due soon, so i guess I'll get it checked out when i give it for that.

Get this sorted before driving it again. If you aren't able to do this yourself, either find a mobile mechanic, or have it trailered to a garage.

 

[Gandalf500]

Many thanks for all the replies and info, I really appreciate all the help
Not what i was hoping to hear, but I had a bad feeling it was something bad.
I got a few basic tools, but this looks like something I should get done professionally.
I can see myself messing it up and making things worse.

I'll have to see about getting it towed to a garage.
Aaahh there's goes the savings lol

Again many thanks to everyone for the advise

KR AW

 

[jrkitching]

I'll have to see about getting it towed to a garage.

Try a mobile mechanic first, it'll save you the towing cost and might work out considerably cheaper. Providing the bolts & threads are undamaged, it's a straightforward job. If they're not familiar with Fiats, you might want to print out the diagram I posted earlier and give it to them - it has the torque settings for the bolts.

 

[varesecrazy]

I was going to post similar. @jrkitching

Same engine in the for Ka too.. So far from exotic

Somebody post a link to the GUIDE for this. : link

Panda 8 Valve cambelt change

this is more awkward than technical.:eek: place a trolley jack under engine sump pan, using a plate of solid wood as a load spreader;) take the weight of the engine, you do NOT need to jack up the car..it can remain on it's wheels. however...

www.fiatforum.com

It's a 2-part engine mount... Has to be removed to swap the timing belt

 

[Gandalf500]

Try a mobile mechanic first, it'll save you the towing cost and might work out considerably cheaper. Providing the bolts & threads are undamaged, it's a straightforward job. If they're not familiar with Fiats, you might want to print out the diagram I posted earlier and give it to them.

Okay good call, I'll see about getting one out, and will show the diagram if needed super awesome cheers for putting that up

 

[Gandalf500]

Hi there, update and need some more advise on this. Mechanic came out and turned out the cam belt had been changed around 2020, but one of the bolts on the component jrkitching posted a link for (not sure the name) wasn't put back. two of the bolt holes are broken. The one at the top has a broken bolt tip stuck in it, the lower one on the right is completely stripped, bolt was fine. He put the okay bolt in the stripped hole, had to tap it but it wasn't a clean tap and bolt didn't go in complete flat. Also the plastic guard got badly chewed up and the belt was on the verge of failiure. i was very lucky to get back before it went. He's changed the belt and fixed it up as best he can, but it's a temporary fix.

So here's the new questions, from what he said a full repair will be about a grand. Would you repair it or get a new car??

Vids and pics below.

Metal part had slipped and was pressing against that plastic part, the lower part had got chewed up bad.

Timing belt, chewed and nearly failed.

 

[Gandalf500]

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi.

As you say it could've been worse

Ok.. The previous change was obviously botched... But has run for 3 years

Access is the issue here..

You need to drill in that small space.. Not a conventional DIY job


90 degree drills do exist.. And with the correct kit you should be able to

1. Helicoil the stripped thread.. Back to 'square'.. How it should be

2. Drill into and remove the snapped threaded portion of bolt that's stuck

This is not always difficult with the correct kit

Your location will determine local labour rates

But realistically.. A competent repair will be @2 hours labour

But you will pay for a skill level


Are you happy with the car?
If so look at it as an investment

His @£1000 quote was to remove the head and do the 2 hole repairs 'on the bench' (by the book)

Fair enough.. But there should be another solution


Feel free to ask more

 

[jrkitching]

Mechanic came out and turned out the cam belt had been changed around 2020, but one of the bolts on the component jrkitching posted a link for (not sure the name) wasn't put back. two of the bolt holes are broken.

This now joins a growing collection of threads where engines that were running perfectly well were compromised by botched cambelt replacements.

I'm not advocating not doing this job, but the number of posts about problems following belt changes far, far outwighs the number we've had reporting an actual belt failure.

The takeaway is that changing the belt on these engines isn't as straightforward as it is on some cars. The procedure offers countless ways to go wrong and get into difficulties. Quite often it's experienced mechanics, who think belt replacement is just a routine job, that mess up.

Also the plastic guard got badly chewed up and the belt was on the verge of failiure. i was very lucky to get back before it went.

You did the right thing. A lot of folks would have risked driving it, and made a bad situation worse. You can see now why so many of us advised you to get this fixed before using the car again.

 

[jrkitching]

So here's the new questions, from what he said a full repair will be about a grand. Would you repair it or get a new car??

Okay, so what to do now?

It's already been said; the gold plated way to fix this is to remove the head and deal with it in an engineering workshop with decent machine tools. Trying to retap blind holes in situ with limited access is likely to just result in a botched job, with the thread running out of true - as you've already found out.

Another alternative, which might be cheaper, is to find a decent secondhand head and fit that. Used 1.2 engine parts aren't hard to find; more folks crash cars than trash engines.

Pragmatically, provided the fixed part of the engine support bracket can be firmly attached, with no risk of it becoming loose in service, then it will likely run just fine for many years. It won't be perfect, but it'll work.

If the belt change was done in 2020 by persons unknown, then you've probably not had the car long enough to get back the value from the money you paid for it. You'll likely lose as much as a proper repair would cost if you chop it in at this point, so either option is going to leave you out of pocket. If it were mine, I'd probably hang on to it for a little while longer, but look to replace it earlier rather than sooner, when the right deal came along.

The one thing I wouldn't do is to keep it if I wasn't absolutely certain this bracket wasn't going to come loose again. It's no fun driving a car if you're constantly worrying if it's going to fail catastrophically at any moment.