Engine mount snapped in my Fiat 500 2011 Lounge

[jrkitching]

I've been giving this some further thought today, and I have a bad feeling about Ellie's position.

I should start with a disclaimer that I'm not legally qualified and the opinions I am expressing should not be construed by anyone as advice on how to proceed.

With that out of the way, I'll begin.

Ellie has bought a 500 which has turned out to be a lemon. It is not her fault...

I don't think anyone is questioning that Ellie is the innocent victim of whatever has happened here. Sadly being an innocent victim will not, in itself, get her any kind of redress, compensation or resolution.

Question is then who has 'written off' the vehicle. As far as I'm concerned, and potentially legally, if it's not an insurance company then it's not technically written off. In which case Fiat might be on dodgy ground in saying that it has.

I'd agree. If no MIAFTR entry has been made in respect of this vehicle (and unless there has been a gross clerical error, it hasn't or it would show up on an HPI check), then it will not be regarded in law as a written off vehicle. IMO Ellie's letter from Fiat does nothing to alter that - they simply chose to sell a damaged vehicle rather than to repair it.

In view of this, it is my opinion that any legal claim based on being sold an undisclosed written off vehicle will fail, since Ellie's car has not in law been written off. There is no legal obligation on any seller, whether trade or private, to disclose repaired unrecorded accident damage (unless specifically asked), providing the vehicle is roadworthy and fit for purpose.

It's also my opinion that, if Ellie wants to get redress through the legal system, she will need evidence that the car was not fit for purpose at the time it was originally sold. Fleet Car Sales will likely say that the combination of the fresh MOT certificate, the clear HPI check and the fact that Ellie has been driving around in the car for months is sufficient evidence that the car was fit for purpose when sold to her. In the absence of any other evidence to the contrary, I doubt that a Court would be able to find in Ellie's favour.

Ellie could challenge this by getting an independent engineer's report on the car (and in this context, I do not think that Fiat Aldershot would be considered independent). If she can get an independent engineer to say in writing that, on balance of probability, the failure of the engine mounting was a direct result of a botched accident repair, then I think she'd have a good legal case to claim for the full cost of repairing the car. If she could additionally get an independent engineer to say that, on balance of probability, the car was so badly repaired that it was unfit for purpose at the time of original sale, then she could also reject the car and get most of her money back. If her claim is successful, she can also claim back the cost of the independent engineer's report.

... my motto is "find the path of least resistance" ...

I'd agree. I like pragmatism.

Ellie could complain to the selling dealer, the finance company, and the credit card company.

Unfortunately I think whoever Ellie complains to will first ask Fleet Car Sales for their side of the story, which is that she bought a used car with a fresh MOT & clear HPI check and no warranty. Without additional evidence of a botched repair, I doubt they'd take it any further.

OTOH, if Fiat are concerned about the consequences of having sold unrecorded salvage (and we still don't know for sure this is what has happened), then they just might make a gesture to get this sorted out.

One way they could do this is if Fiat were to settle Ellie's finance agreement and take back the car, in exchange for Ellie taking out a new Fiat pcp on a brand new 500. Fiat could then dispose of Ellie's old car, hopefully in an appropriate way. This would leave Ellie with a new car for a monthly payment which hopefully would not be much more than she is paying now, and IMO this would also be very good publicity for Fiat.

I'd stress, though, that Fiat have absolutely no legal obligation whatsoever to Ellie - she has no Contract with them, so this would all have to be done on the basis of goodwill.

A final thought when considering the path to take is that you not only have to win your case, you also have to get the money. It might be worth remembering that the price Ellie paid for the car may be more than the total net worth of Fleet Car Sales.

So how do these come about then? As if subject to an insurance claim they're either repaired or written off. Or are there lots of people taking massive losses having insured their newish cars third party only

Quite a few rental companies and large fleet users self insure their fleets against first party risks; it's not that unusual.

The ABI Code of Practice for the Disposal of Motor Vehicle Salvage is voluntary; whilst almost all insurance companies have signed up to it, some large fleet users who self insure have not and there is nothing in law to prevent them from selling unrecorded salvage. They have a short term financial incentive to do so; unrecorded salvage will likely command a significantly higher price, because it can be repaired and sold on with no legal requirement of disclosure and a clean HPI certificate.

There is an interesting article on this very subject here.

Finally, and I'm addressing this specifically to Ellie, none of this is a substitute for getting proper independent professional advice, and your plan to seek this next week is a very good one. I sincerely hope that you are able to find a resolution to the problems you are having with your car.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Quite a few rental companies and large fleet users self insure their fleets against first party risks; it's not that unusual.

Good point that I'd completely over seen.

I know dad (ex BT) always mentioned that BT as a company self insure etc. So very feasible.

 

[jrkitching]

Good point that I'd completely over seen.

I know dad (ex BT) always mentioned that BT as a company self insure etc. So very feasible.

Those operators of self insured fleets who do subscribe to the ABI Code of Practice will use the services of an ABI accredited inspecting engineer to categorise salvage as A,B,C,D or X in exactly the same way as an insurance company, and would also be expected to keep and maintain photographic evidence and other records of disposal to the same standard.

None of this would appear to have happened in Ellie's case.

 

[GrandeGuy]

Good point that I'd completely over seen.



I know dad (ex BT) always mentioned that BT as a company self insure etc. So very feasible.

We are self insured

 

[EllieBoxall]

We are self insured

Who's we GrandeGuy? Do you work for Fiat?

 

[Sweetsixteen]

Coming late and fresh to this thread, my immediate impression is that you need to get much more forceful and 'in your face' Ellie.

Sending emails, using CAB - which is in effect a third party - is not enough. You must sit on the phone to all involved, and make yourself a right nuisance. Keep records of names, and PESTER them without letup. Make them hate you. Force them to act.

The old Bible story is still the best way forward today: A judge was being pestered by a widow, and he eventually said, 'I will give this widow justice just to get her off my back.' (Or words to that effect).

Forgive me if I read this long thread wrong, but I do get the feeling that you are being too nice with everyone. It's dragging, and the fuse needs to be lit.

Sweetsixteen.

 

[jrkitching]

Forgive me if I read this long thread wrong, but I do get the feeling that you are being too nice with everyone. It's dragging, and the fuse needs to be lit.

Sweetsixteen, I can understand where you're coming from and sometimes taking a hard line is the easiest way to force a resolution.

But in this case, I think Ellie's legal position is rather weak and they might respond by figuratively slamming the door in her face.

I think, Ellie, that you would do better to resolve this using goodwill if you possibly can.

 

[dave]

If fiat uk are the only ones who knew the car was a right off are they not in some way responcible? they should have insisted it went to a breaker as break only and obtained a c.o.d. once a car is issued a c.o.d it should never be seen on the road again.

 

[jrkitching]

If fiat uk are the only ones who knew the car was a right off are they not in some way responcible?

Perhaps morally, but probably not legally. Ellie has no contract with Fiat and they have no duty of care to her.

There is no law against selling unrecorded salvage. It seems that anyone can buy it, repair it and put the car back on the road without any checks whatsoever. I don't think there is any legal obligation for a dealer to disclose repaired accident damage unless the car has been recorded on the MIAFTR database.

AFAIK the only legal requirement is that the car is roadworthy and fit for purpose at the time of sale. In the absence of other evidence, IMO the clear HPI check and fresh MOT would be accepted by a Court as sufficent proof of this.

Ellie needs to get independent advice, but I do not think she will be able to take this any further through the legal process without further evidence that the car was defective when she bought it. If the accident repair was done very badly, getting an independent engineer's report should confirm this.

It is possible that Fiat may feel sufficiently responsible to make a goodwill contribution towards sorting out this sorry mess, and this may be Ellie's best way of getting this resolved.

they should have insisted it went to a breaker as break only and obtained a c.o.d. once a car is issued a c.o.d it should never be seen on the road again.

I don't think Ellie's car was that badly damaged. From what's been posted so far, if this had been dealt with by an insurance company, it would only have been recorded as Cat D.

An HPI check should only ever be used as a check; a clear HPI certificate is not in itself proof that a car does not have significant repaired crash damage. Think of it as putting a document through a spell checker; it will spot some errors that you might have missed, but it's no guarantee that your document is error free.

Anyone committing a significant sum to a used car would be well advised to have the car independently inspected before purchase.

 

[poggy]

The garage are likely responsible for the repairs and given the evidence you have a very strong case to follow this up.

As a business you are responsible for the product you sell, wherever it is sourced from.

The service history is fake from what I read, yet it was sold with a full service history. The garage are responsible for this, whether they knew or not in law. It also has a monetary affect on the car, so you are effectively financially disadvantaged by this compared to what you contracted to buy. (I hope you have a copy of advert).

The car had to be in road worthy condition with wear and tear fair for age and mileage described. If you have proof from Fiat it had a "major" (not minor) accident and this can be shown to cause the failure, again the garage are responsible. Again whether they knew or not is irrelevant, the fault was inherent at purchase from garage. If Fiat have any details on the level of damage, I.e would it have been Cat D, Cat C etc, that will help. Whether it is registered or not on the database, putting a seriously damaged car back on the road without a inspection could be illegal if it was purchased on the basis it could not return to the road. But it would have had to have been seriously damaged and not a minor repair.

The MOT is only a indication of the roadworthy nature of the car on the day the MOT was completed, it actually has little value in this case as proof either way.

I would check your home insurance policy as many have legal cover, which would include disputes such as this. They will provide legal support or even just a helpline to get advice.

Sometimes the HPI is not updated quickly enough, so it might appear later on the register, depending on how long it was between accident and repair. Might be worth checking again in a while.

The previous owner would be a good start, which you mentioned was Fiat Fleet, they must have the history.

The easiest way to start is the service history, as it is fake the garage by law are financially responsible for this whether they knew or not. It is also a indication that somebody deliberately tried to create a fake history, possibly to cover up time off road. Ask the DVLA if the car was ever SORN and the dates, as this might show when the accident occurred. It is very very unlikely Fiat had any knowledge of this, but the finance company should know who it was sold to when damaged if that is what happened. If that doesn't tie in with keeper change date on log book, you need to find out where it went. The finance company may have completed a sold to trade section of log book, so another keeper is not shown. It would be great if you could find this and also the auction it was sold at.

The garage you bought from are most likely totally oblivious to any of this as they just sourced it for stock, unfortunately even if they didn't know they have obligations to you and may have to take the financial implications.

Good luck with it, but don't give up. Whilst the garage maybe annoyed that they get stuck with the problem,that is why people buy from dealers to get protection.

 

[EllieBoxall]

Sweetsixteen, I can understand where you're coming from and sometimes taking a hard line is the easiest way to force a resolution.

But in this case, I think Ellie's legal position is rather weak and they might respond by figuratively slamming the door in her face.

I think, Ellie, that you would do better to resolve this using goodwill if you possibly can.

I think I've many avenues to take here, and as others have said, car dealers have a responsibility to check the car before they sell it, i.e. service history etc, Fleet Car sales say they 'can't remember' where they bought the car from. Also the MOT means nothing to me because I have photos of parts of my engine super glued back together, bolts missing and my radiator cover is cracked. The fact they are just ignoring me is doing them no favours either.

 

[EllieBoxall]

The garage are likely responsible for the repairs and given the evidence you have a very strong case to follow this up.

As a business you are responsible for the product you sell, wherever it is sourced from.

The service history is fake from what I read, yet it was sold with a full service history. The garage are responsible for this, whether they knew or not in law. It also has a monetary affect on the car, so you are effectively financially disadvantaged by this compared to what you contracted to buy. (I hope you have a copy of advert).

The car had to be in road worthy condition with wear and tear fair for age and mileage described. If you have proof from Fiat it had a "major" (not minor) accident and this can be shown to cause the failure, again the garage are responsible. Again whether they knew or not is irrelevant, the fault was inherent at purchase from garage. If Fiat have any details on the level of damage, I.e would it have been Cat D, Cat C etc, that will help. Whether it is registered or not on the database, putting a seriously damaged car back on the road without a inspection could be illegal if it was purchased on the basis it could not return to the road. But it would have had to have been seriously damaged and not a minor repair.

The MOT is only a indication of the roadworthy nature of the car on the day the MOT was completed, it actually has little value in this case as proof either way.

I would check your home insurance policy as many have legal cover, which would include disputes such as this. They will provide legal support or even just a helpline to get advice.

Sometimes the HPI is not updated quickly enough, so it might appear later on the register, depending on how long it was between accident and repair. Might be worth checking again in a while.

The previous owner would be a good start, which you mentioned was Fiat Fleet, they must have the history.

The easiest way to start is the service history, as it is fake the garage by law are financially responsible for this whether they knew or not. It is also a indication that somebody deliberately tried to create a fake history, possibly to cover up time off road. Ask the DVLA if the car was ever SORN and the dates, as this might show when the accident occurred. It is very very unlikely Fiat had any knowledge of this, but the finance company should know who it was sold to when damaged if that is what happened. If that doesn't tie in with keeper change date on log book, you need to find out where it went. The finance company may have completed a sold to trade section of log book, so another keeper is not shown. It would be great if you could find this and also the auction it was sold at.

The garage you bought from are most likely totally oblivious to any of this as they just sourced it for stock, unfortunately even if they didn't know they have obligations to you and may have to take the financial implications.

Good luck with it, but don't give up. Whilst the garage maybe annoyed that they get stuck with the problem,that is why people buy from dealers to get protection.

Poggy you have brightened my day, this whole thing is really getting me down and although I'm sure everything John is saying is good advice / opinions it's putting a right downer on anything I am trying to achieve here. I have to legally give them 7 days to respond from my letter as they have already had 7 days from my two emails which they have ignored. All relevant parties are now involved carrying out their own necessary checks which will take time but I'm willing to wait it out because as far as I'm concerned, whether they were aware of the history of this car, they should be taking responsibility as they are the ones who sold it, it is, in my opinion their own fault for not checking the service history, as this could have uncovered a lot more and just because they MOT'd it, doesn't mean the car is fit for purpose, things were overlooked, according to the garage, my car has very clearly had some damage. I will be taking it up with Fiat regarding the correct disposal of the car, and to see if that gets me any closer to my goal but at the end of the day, I bought that car will full service history (yes i have a copy of the advertisement) for £8000, Fleet car sales should not be ignoring me, it is the worst kind of business manner, and I've been told by people in the area that this isn't the first dodgy deal known to have happened on that forecourt. I am doing everything , in my opinion again, in the correct way, I'm not accusing them of anything, i am being patient and I'm following procedure, but if they want to play dirty, I'll give as good as I get.

Sorry if this makes me sound awful, rude, ungrateful for all your help but I don't know what is right and wrong anymore, I feel I'm being punished for buying a car out of good faith that could have killed me and nobody seems to want to take responsibility for what has happened. I know for a fact, had there have been a different outcome to the engine falling out, this would have all been settled very quickly and quietly.

 

[EllieBoxall]

Perhaps morally, but probably not legally. Ellie has no contract with Fiat and they have no duty of care to her.

There is no law against selling unrecorded salvage. It seems that anyone can buy it, repair it and put the car back on the road without any checks whatsoever. I don't think there is any legal obligation for a dealer to disclose repaired accident damage unless the car has been recorded on the MIAFTR database.

AFAIK the only legal requirement is that the car is roadworthy and fit for purpose at the time of sale. In the absence of other evidence, IMO the clear HPI check and fresh MOT would be accepted by a Court as sufficent proof of this.

Ellie needs to get independent advice, but I do not think she will be able to take this any further through the legal process without further evidence that the car was defective when she bought it. If the accident repair was done very badly, getting an independent engineer's report should confirm this.

It is possible that Fiat may feel sufficiently responsible to make a goodwill contribution towards sorting out this sorry mess, and this may be Ellie's best way of getting this resolved.



I don't think Ellie's car was that badly damaged. From what's been posted so far, if this had been dealt with by an insurance company, it would only have been recorded as Cat D.

An HPI check should only ever be used as a check; a clear HPI certificate is not in itself proof that a car does not have significant repaired crash damage. Think of it as putting a document through a spell checker; it will spot some errors that you might have missed, but it's no guarantee that your document is error free.

Anyone committing a significant sum to a used car would be well advised to have the car independently inspected before purchase.

Yes Fiat have said its a Cat D, I however have photos of superglued parts, a cracked radiator cover, bolts missing and bent frames. The break pads needed replacing at 16,000 miles and my stop start didn't work correctly, this brought to light the car only had a Halfords (or some shop bought) battery and not the correct Fiat OEM battery inside. All things overlooked during the MOT.

 

[EllieBoxall]

Coming late and fresh to this thread, my immediate impression is that you need to get much more forceful and 'in your face' Ellie.

Sending emails, using CAB - which is in effect a third party - is not enough. You must sit on the phone to all involved, and make yourself a right nuisance. Keep records of names, and PESTER them without letup. Make them hate you. Force them to act.

The old Bible story is still the best way forward today: A judge was being pestered by a widow, and he eventually said, 'I will give this widow justice just to get her off my back.' (Or words to that effect).

Forgive me if I read this long thread wrong, but I do get the feeling that you are being too nice with everyone. It's dragging, and the fuse needs to be lit.

Sweetsixteen.

Advice I have been given by many others... certainly my next port of call. Thank you

 

[Sweetsixteen]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
It's always been so.

The garage are stonewalling, hoping that our OP will just fold up and go away. Fiat are being uncharacteristically polite. I ask myself, what is the garage afraid of, and what do Fiat know that they are not revealing.

If, as has been said, you have a weak legal case Ellie (and I don't personally accept that), then you need to use your big gun - publicity. Write out a fact sheet, giving events as you know them in chronological order. Verifiable facts only, with no opinions.

Print it, and send copies with a covering personal letter giving your feelings (feelings are not legally challengeable), to local newspapers, nationals (Mail On Sunday is a good one), use Facebook, contact your MP -in fact, blitz everyone with it. Make it newsworthy - 'young woman, inexperienced in the murky world of car dealing, being stonewalled by major players,' etc.
And make it clear that you are not going to go away!

If you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly.
No cracks please about grizzlies with squeaky wheels!

Sweetsixteen.

 

[EllieBoxall]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
It's always been so.

The garage are stonewalling, hoping that our OP will just fold up and go away. Fiat are being uncharacteristically polite. I ask myself, what is the garage afraid of, and what do Fiat know that they are not revealing.

If, as has been said, you have a weak legal case Ellie (and I don't personally accept that), then you need to use your big gun - publicity. Write out a fact sheet, giving events as you know them in chronological order. Verifiable facts only, with no opinions.

Print it, and send copies with a covering personal letter giving your feelings (feelings are not legally challengeable), to local newspapers, nationals (Mail On Sunday is a good one), use Facebook, contact your MP -in fact, blitz everyone with it. Make it newsworthy - 'young woman, inexperienced in the murky world of car dealing, being stonewalled by major players,' etc.
And make it clear that you are not going to go away!

If you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly.
No cracks please about grizzlies with squeaky wheels!

Sweetsixteen.

100% my next port of call, been told by many friends / family this should have been my first port of call, but as others have noticed, perhaps I was slightly naive going into this thinking it was going to be simple. Thank you to everyone who has helped me!!! I will be keeping everyone updated.

 

[jrkitching]

...it's putting a right downer on anything I am trying to achieve here...

Ellie, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as unduly pessimistic.

If you can get an independent engineer's report to say that, on balance of probability, the car was unfit for purpose at the time it was sold to you, then you will have a very strong legal case if it ever came to Court. Given what you are saying about the state of the car, I'd say you've a good chance of being able to get this.

The service history is fake from what I read, yet it was sold with a full service history. The garage are responsible for this, whether they knew or not in law. It also has a monetary affect on the car, so you are effectively financially disadvantaged by this compared to what you contracted to buy. (I hope you have a copy of advert).

A very important point poggy, and one I'd momentarily forgotten.

This would be viewed seriously by a Court; Fleet Car Sales would be facing a hefty fine, and Ellie would likely be awarded some compensation for the reduced value of the car due to its having no service history. See the link to the similar case I posted earlier.

But I don't think it would be enough to reject the car. The engine mount didn't fail because the car wasn't serviced; it failed (in my opinion) because the repair wasn't done to a satisfactory standard.

An independent engineers report should give Ellie proof of that, and would strengthen her case considerably.

 

[EllieBoxall]

Ellie, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as unduly pessimistic.

If you can get an independent engineer's report to say that, on balance of probability, the car was unfit for purpose at the time it was sold to you, then you will have a very strong legal case if it ever came to Court. Given what you are saying about the state of the car, I'd say you've a good chance of being able to get this.

It's just all getting me down, that's all, but I am grateful for your input. The trouble is, the car can't be towed, so unless I get a mechanic to go into the Fiat garage in Aldershot, that would be a bit of a task. But I'll ask the question around the area, as I need to exhaust all options here.

 

[poggy]

Don't get down, use your energy to find out as much as you can about the car, history, previous sales etc

The more information you have the easier it will be to get the outcome you deserve. Just remember none of this was your doing.

The service history being fake is better than no service history to be honest, as it shows it is not just a innocent repair of a damaged car.

As for the dealer saying they can't remember where they bought it. Remind them that they will a purchase invoice for it otherwise HMRC will not be impressed with their book keeping.

 

[jrkitching]

The trouble is, the car can't be towed, so unless I get a mechanic to go into the Fiat garage in Aldershot, that would be a bit of a task. But I'll ask the question around the area, as I need to exhaust all options here.

That shouldn't be an obstacle; independent vehicle examiners routinely assess vehicles on site.

This is one such company. I've no personal knowledge of them; it just happens to be one that came up when I did a google search. There's a case they've referenced on their website that looks similar to yours.

It wouldn't cost you anything to phone them, explain your situation, and see what they say. Just be sure to tell them that you need a report which will be suitable for Court use, should that prove necessary.