Electronic Battery Sensors

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

PS to the above. SEAT advised not to disconnect the battery as "other issues" might arise?

 

[varesecrazy]

I suppose the Master Tech saying..
'As long as its a Trickle Charger'

Could be taken as gospel.. but what output is that..??

The problem here is we are creatures of habit...
'I've always done that... been fine before'

Years ago when I worked in a school.. they used PP3 Batteries for projects... they generally left them coupled after the class was finished.. so I often had boxes of duds

I bought a couple of ni.cad rechargeable ones... saved some grief..

A teacher came into my storeroom

And grabbed one off the shelf...

Some of you will guess the rest..

The 'standard test' is to put the round and octagonal terminals on your tongue.. if its got any power left.. you get a tingle

He got a Lisp

WAAYY more amps than envisaged..

the same could be applied across these sensors..

 

[portland_bill]

Had a reply back from SEAT. It's from the person who said they would forward my query to their tech department. She tells me she's spoken to an internal Master Technician who advises, as long as it's a trickle charger (which is, I suppose, what the CTEK is?) just connecting directly to the battery terminals on both positive and negative. It's disappointing that I didn't end up with a direct technical contact - I'd be happier hearing it from the "horses mouth" but I suppose I should accept the advice.

I'm still rather nervous about the instruction on the terminal protector/shield not to connect to the negative terminal:

Hopefully the reply is an email, that you can keep for as long as you own the car. If at some time the dealer or SEAT suggest your charger has contributed to any failure, you have a 'get out of jail free' card.

The notice on the battery is for jump leads for a jump start. A trickle charger shouldn't be doing much more than the alternator.

 

[DaveMcT]

My Optimate delivers 1.3 Amps. Its supposed to be suitable for bike batteries but works fine on cars though it takes "a while" if charge is low.

HOWEVER, "battery tenders" like the Optimate may initially deliver a "high" voltage pulse (around 20V). This wakes up dead cells and is supposed to avoid any going reverse polarity. This will brick a LiFePO4 as many bikers now use and it might upset the monitor circuits used on cars these days.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

After Dave's post above I was wondering about these initial boost voltages (which I've previously heard of elsewhere) so I fired of a quite technical request for info to them and I've recently had another contact from CTEK's technical people themselves, relayed through their customer relations dept, with a lot of additional tech stuff. So, just to keep the thread up to date:- They say specifically that "CTEK chargers are safe to electronics" They go on to say if you select RECOND - of course you would be selecting "NORMAL" to do a routine charge - it raises the voltage to a max of 15.8 volts (most vehicle manufacturers specify that 16 volts max is sustainable apparently) but current is kept very low as it only does this after carrying out a full battery charge. They say to use RECOND only if a battery has been substantially flattened or once a year as a "proactive treatment". From what I gather it promotes "a controlled gassing" at the plates which will cause the electrolyte to move around and so remix the electrolyte. That worries me just slightly with a sealed battery, but I suppose they know what they are doing. I've heard of stratification before as it can happen to a battery if it's left unused for long periods. The acid and water can separate out into layers so becoming less efficient at doing it's job. Unsurprisingly Recond works well on flooded batteries - included EFBs like mine - but won't benefit AGM or Gel types as they have no liquid electrolyte. In fact they say that whilst "Reconding" an AGM battery will not harm it there's no point in doing it but you should NOT do a Recond on a GEL battery as, they say, it can cause the gel to solidify and will ruin the battery. Depending largely on battery size and which model charger you have, The Recond process will last typically between half an hour and 4 hours.

The above is a condensation of a page and a bit of info - well done CTEK - Then right at the end they popped in a wee paragraph to the effect that stratification can cause a battery to perform in a similar way to sulphation and not to confuse them. - Sulphation, of course, is something Lead Acid batteries will nearly all suffer from with age and is a battery killer. Just about the best way to induce it is to not use a battery and not keep it charged. So I was very interested indeed to read the last paragraph of their missive where they say that "every CTEK charging program starts with a desulphation step, so you do not have to worry about that!!" (yes they put two exclamation marks!) They don't go into any detail about this "step". Does that really mean that if I use the CTEK regularly I will never again suffer a sulphated battery? Somehow I doubt it?

I'm very pleased indeed with all this info they've passed on and I've thanked them profusely. It's so refreshing to get a communication from a company like this which demonstrates how obviously passionate they are about their products and customers. I've politely asked if they would care to expand about what this "desulphation step" consists of. Can't wait to get their reply but I'm not holding my breath because they again said that they are quite incredibly busy just now with lots of people asking about sorting out flat batteries. It occurs to me that this is probably even more of a problem with the "deep discharge" problems modern batteries suffer from which was not a problem with older batteries. I believe the "Recond" program in the CTEK can address this because of it's ability to deliver a raised voltage and monitor closely how the battery is responding - substantially flattened?

I'd not considered this before now because I didn't properly understand what the RECOND setting actually did to the battery, but now I think my jump start battery which lives in the garage on "maintenance charge" would benefit from a RECOND once a year because it only really does emergency jump starts and when I need to maintain power to a vehicle when I've got it's own battery disconnected.

They've also confirmed that the "safe" option is always to connect the charger's earth lead to a body earth which seems to be what the schematics on the SEAT's battery are recommending. So I'm now feeling pretty relaxed about using this charger on a vehicle with battery monitoring - which is likely to be any with stop/start.

So here now comes my wee disclaimer (because I'm a feardy). I hope this has been informative but please understand that I'm a hammer wielding grease monkey not an electronics engineer and I may have misunderstood or misinterpreted some or all of the above. I don't think I have but if you decide to try it and something "dies" as a result then it's entirely down to you.

So stay safe everyone
Jock

PS. forgot to say I think the max amperage on my Multi XS 7000 model is 7 amps? or thereabouts.

 

[jackwhoo]

After Dave's post above I was wondering about these initial boost voltages (which I've previously heard of elsewhere) so I fired of a quite technical request for info to them and I've recently had another contact from CTEK's technical people themselves, relayed through their customer relations dept, with a lot of additional tech stuff. So, just to keep the thread up to date:- They say specifically that "CTEK chargers are safe to electronics" They go on to say if you select RECOND - of course you would be selecting "NORMAL" to do a routine charge - it raises the voltage to a max of 15.8 volts (most vehicle manufacturers specify that 16 volts max is sustainable apparently) but current is kept very low as it only does this after carrying out a full battery charge. They say to use RECOND only if a battery has been substantially flattened or once a year as a "proactive treatment". From what I gather it promotes "a controlled gassing" at the plates which will cause the electrolyte to move around and so remix the electrolyte. That worries me just slightly with a sealed battery, but I suppose they know what they are doing. I've heard of stratification before as it can happen to a battery if it's left unused for long periods. The acid and water can separate out into layers so becoming less efficient at doing it's job. Unsurprisingly Recond works well on flooded batteries - included EFBs like mine - but won't benefit AGM or Gel types as they have no liquid electrolyte. In fact they say that whilst "Reconding" an AGM battery will not harm it there's no point in doing it but you should NOT do a Recond on a GEL battery as, they say, it can cause the gel to solidify and will ruin the battery. Depending largely on battery size and which model charger you have, The Recond process will last typically between half an hour and 4 hours.

The above is a condensation of a page and a bit of info - well done CTEK - Then right at the end they popped in a wee paragraph to the effect that stratification can cause a battery to perform in a similar way to sulphation and not to confuse them. - Sulphation, of course, is something Lead Acid batteries will nearly all suffer from with age and is a battery killer. Just about the best way to induce it is to not use a battery and not keep it charged. So I was very interested indeed to read the last paragraph of their missive where they say that "every CTEK charging program starts with a desulphation step, so you do not have to worry about that!!" (yes they put two exclamation marks!) They don't go into any detail about this "step". Does that really mean that if I use the CTEK regularly I will never again suffer a sulphated battery? Somehow I doubt it?

I'm very pleased indeed with all this info they've passed on and I've thanked them profusely. It's so refreshing to get a communication from a company like this which demonstrates how obviously passionate they are about their products and customers. I've politely asked if they would care to expand about what this "desulphation step" consists of. Can't wait to get their reply but I'm not holding my breath because they again said that they are quite incredibly busy just now with lots of people asking about sorting out flat batteries. It occurs to me that this is probably even more of a problem with the "deep discharge" problems modern batteries suffer from which was not a problem with older batteries. I believe the "Recond" program in the CTEK can address this because of it's ability to deliver a raised voltage and monitor closely how the battery is responding - substantially flattened?

I'd not considered this before now because I didn't properly understand what the RECOND setting actually did to the battery, but now I think my jump start battery which lives in the garage on "maintenance charge" would benefit from a RECOND once a year because it only really does emergency jump starts and when I need to maintain power to a vehicle when I've got it's own battery disconnected.

They've also confirmed that the "safe" option is always to connect the charger's earth lead to a body earth which seems to be what the schematics on the SEAT's battery are recommending. So I'm now feeling pretty relaxed about using this charger on a vehicle with battery monitoring - which is likely to be any with stop/start.

So here now comes my wee disclaimer (because I'm a feardy). I hope this has been informative but please understand that I'm a hammer wielding grease monkey not an electronics engineer and I may have misunderstood or misinterpreted some or all of the above. I don't think I have but if you decide to try it and something "dies" as a result then it's entirely down to you.

So stay safe everyone
Jock

PS. forgot to say I think the max amperage on my Multi XS 7000 model is 7 amps? or thereabouts.

Hi Jock,

Electrolyte needing mixing is relevant to batteries which are stationary for long periods(like your standby battery)
A vehicle battery is nicely jostled around on a journey keeping the electrolyte mixed .

Jiggle your standby battery occasionally and you will be fine.

I'm off to wobble my motorcycle battery.
Motorcycle battery is vrla (valve regulated lead acid) means it only vents when internal pressure is 5psi greater than external air pressure. Lots of times this type is called sealed, it's not really.

Cheers
Jack

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi Jock,

Electrolyte needing mixing is relevant to batteries which are stationary for long periods(like your standby battery)
A vehicle battery is nicely jostled around on a journey keeping the electrolyte mixed .

Jiggle your standby battery occasionally and you will be fine.

I'm off to wobble my motorcycle battery.
Motorcycle battery is vrla (valve regulated lead acid) means it only vents when internal pressure is 5psi greater than external air pressure. Lots of times this type is called sealed, it's not really.

Cheers
Jack

It's quite a big old battery. Came off my old Cordoba Diesel. 77 amp hour. Two handed lift to get it out. Don't think "jiggle" is much of a possibility, but I know what you mean. Thanks Jack. Quite fancy having a "play" with that RECOND setting anyway just to see what happens. _ I'll stand it somewhere that if it leaks it won't matter!

Kindest regards
Jock

 

[jackwhoo]

It's quite a big old battery. Came off my old Cordoba Diesel. 77 amp hour. Two handed lift to get it out. Don't think "jiggle" is much of a possibility, but I know what you mean. Thanks Jack. Quite fancy having a "play" with that RECOND setting anyway just to see what happens. _ I'll stand it somewhere that if it leaks it won't matter!

Kindest regards
Jock

That will work too if you get all technical about it(-:
Wiggling my 10amp hour battery was not too taxing but a snack has been earned.

Jack

 

[DaveMcT]

That will work too if you get all technical about it(-:
Wiggling my 10amp hour battery was not too taxing but a snack has been earned.

Jack

I put a 4AH LiFePO4 on the Bimmer GS. It did a fine job and gave the same starting ability as a 14AH lead acid. But no more need for Optimate conditioning (great as my garage has no mains power) and minimal degradation even after months of disuse. It struggled when very cold but a "failed" start warms the battery so the next try fires it up no problem. No bad for a 1200cc twin.

 

[varesecrazy]

Mildly off.topic

Battery voltages..

I mentioned over the winter how I bought a cheap ciggy LED voltmeter..

Displays 14.4 in all my FIATS when running.. so OK'ish

But the parked.up Grandes register 11.1 and 10.9 still start ok

Last weeks challenge.. coax my neighbours petrol clio into life now lockdown is about to relax

It was LOW..

Charged it offsite.. reinstalled..

Showing 11.1v lights and fuel pump.. but nothing other than a click in glovebox when asked to crank

Put the battery off my M4 Commuter on it

10.9v nothing.. however

Im using the FIAT method wait for selftest then crank..

If I go straight at it.. it spins over.. for a few seconds.. no firing

11.1 v battery.. no dice

My diesel grande will start with either

Clio.. no running from both..

Weird

 

[jackwhoo]

Mildly off.topic

Battery voltages..

I mentioned over the winter how I bought a cheap ciggy LED voltmeter..

Displays 14.4 in all my FIATS when running.. so OK'ish

But the parked.up Grandes register 11.1 and 10.9 still start ok

Last weeks challenge.. coax my neighbours petrol clio into life now lockdown is about to relax

It was LOW..

Charged it offsite.. reinstalled..

Showing 11.1v lights and fuel pump.. but nothing other than a click in glovebox when asked to crank

Put the battery off my M4 Commuter on it

10.9v nothing.. however

Im using the FIAT method wait for selftest then crank..

If I go straight at it.. it spins over.. for a few seconds.. no firing

11.1 v battery.. no dice

My diesel grande will start with either

Clio.. no running from both..

Weird

Sounds like renault imobiliser stopping start.
There is an unlabled red led on dash that should go out when(if) key recognised
What year clio?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

HOWEVER, "battery tenders" like the Optimate may initially deliver a "high" voltage pulse (around 20V). This wakes up dead cells and is supposed to avoid any going reverse polarity. This will brick a LiFePO4 as many bikers now use and it might upset the monitor circuits used on cars these days.

If you've been following this thread you'll know I said above that I was interested in finding out what the CTEK is doing during the Desulphation part of it's program and that I was emailing them for additional info on it

Well, it seems to tie in with what you are saying about "battery tenders" delivering a hit to the battery to wake up dead cells Dave.

From what they've emailed back it would seem that the charger, when first turned on, analyses the electrical state of the surface of the plates. What they told me, which I already knew from basic college "stuff", - but I'm not saying that with any intention to deride, is that:- "a battery with too much sulphation on the active surface of it's plates cannot receive current". They went on to say, and this is the bit I hadn't thought about, "only voltage rises due to high resistance and this is when the charger starts to send rapid (5Hz) voltage peaks to break down the sulphates and restore battery performance." The current is 0.5amps, 15.8 volt peaks 5Hz frequency. - how many other companies would list specific values like this? - Well done CTEK!

So it seems to me that the charger applies voltage to the battery but if it finds it can't flow any current, despite rising voltage, it then initiates this 5 hertz controlled pulsing which I imagine will loosen sulphate deposits from the plate surface so it can fall to the bottom of the cell and expose clean reactive plate surface. Presumably by controlling the pulse max voltage to 15.8 they avoid any damage to electronic components?

Finally they say "If no sulphation problem exists, battery can receive current and charger continues on to soft start and so on." So I understand this to mean that when you switch on the charger if it doesn't find any excessive cell resistance it skips the desulphation pulsing bit and goes straight on to do a normal battery charge. All on it's own, just like "that", clever isn't it?

So another highly informative email from the folks at CTEK. I must say again how very impressed I've been with this series of contacts I've had with them. I find often when asking companies for info like this you get a first reply back which goes partway to answering your query but subsequent contact attempts are often met with a stony silence. These folks have not only replied to every email but also gone to the trouble of passing on technical queries to someone who can give a meaningful answer. I suppose a small criticism might be raised at some of their grammar, but that doesn't bother me - I couldn't address them with even one word of their language!

I can't think of anything else to ask them just now so this brings my enquiries to a close for the present. However I would say to anyone thinking of buying a CTEK, buy with confidence their customer support, in my case anyway, has been superb.

 

[varesecrazy]

Sounds like renault imobiliser stopping start.
There is an unlabled red led on dash that should go out when(if) key recognised
What year clio?

2003 ish

I was looking for a dash symbol..

had a glowplug light..its a typically tinny petrol

Got a spare battery thats just revived an old 307.. 1.4 so that will be the test

Dont want to buy a new battery then chase other issues..

Thanks for input.. will raise a thread if it doesnt go vroom

 

[jackwhoo]

2003 ish

I was looking for a dash symbol..

had a glowplug light..its a typically tinny petrol

Got a spare battery thats just revived an old 307.. 1.4 so that will be the test

Dont want to buy a new battery then chase other issues..

Thanks for input.. will raise a thread if it doesnt go vroom

The renault imobiliser is very sensitive to low battery

Dash symbol far to advanced an unlabled read dot in the middle is all French need.

 

[varesecrazy]

Magnifique.. !

 

[jackwhoo]

Magnifique.. !

Non, c'est normal engllliisshh roast beef

 

[portland_bill]

Some years ago, my sister-in-law had an early Scenic. There was a time limit between unlocking and starting, exceed it and the immobiliser would reset and prevent starting. Had to lock and unlock again to be able to start. After fitting/checking/testing battery, might need to lock/unlock before start attempt.

She had to get her husband out of his chair, and into the car, then stow the chair in the boot, then once settled herself, do the lock/unlock before starting. She got used to it, would have driven me nuts withn days.

Sometimes a stall would require a lock/unlock before it would restart. Very exciting in the middle of a busy junction, she got very quick at it.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Some of these wee Foibles are quite strange aren't they. As I think I've mentioned before, my younger boy's wife runs an '08 Jazz - which I maintain for her - and, nearby, in Leith, there is a Honda independent who is very helpful. I was chatting to him about a year or so ago and the subject of renewing batteries came up as I'd just had to put a new one in my older boy's Astra. "Oh" said he "you know never to leave the keys in the ignition if you're doing that on the Jazz don't you" No said I? "It's all down to the immobilizer and how it communicates with the key. It's highly likely it will be corrupted to such an extent that it'll need to go on a main dealer computer to be reprogrammed before it'll start again" I haven't ever had to disconnect this battery yet but if I do the keys will be on my workbench at the other end of the garage!

 

[jackwhoo]

Some of these wee Foibles are quite strange aren't they. As I think I've mentioned before, my younger boy's wife runs an '08 Jazz - which I maintain for her - and, nearby, in Leith, there is a Honda independent who is very helpful. I was chatting to him about a year or so ago and the subject of renewing batteries came up as I'd just had to put a new one in my older boy's Astra. "Oh" said he "you know never to leave the keys in the ignition if you're doing that on the Jazz don't you" No said I? "It's all down to the immobilizer and how it communicates with the key. It's highly likely it will be corrupted to such an extent that it'll need to go on a main dealer computer to be reprogrammed before it'll start again" I haven't ever had to disconnect this battery yet but if I do the keys will be on my workbench at the other end of the garage!

Quite right , I have mentioned this once or twice it definitely screws up honda civic immo system too.

Just do not have keys anywhere near car at all when connecting battery , new or otherwise or even connecting a battery charger.

08 jazzzzzz or any jazzz biggest enemy is rust yes rust especially under the rear.
I expect Jock already has that under control(-:

And theft of catalytic converters

Jack

 

[DaveMcT]

A folded 2mm thick aluminium cover over the cat would fox most thieves. They want easy access and that would slow them down. Angle grinders don't like cutting aluminium.