General E10 petrol for B

wapper

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I know there is a topic here about E10 petrol, but it's 10 years old.
Since then, E10 has made its way into many countries, including my own. I wonder if there is also some experience about actual harm that E10 can do to our engines and fuel lines. Evidently there should be cases when a friend/wife/stupid myself poured wrong type of petrol into the tank. I tried to find some horror storied on the internet, but found none.
So perhaps E10 is not such a killer and *can* be used periodically, if ethanol-free fuel is not available?
 

Iggy64

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Even though the Barchetta is specifically listed by Fiat as not approved to run on e10, my understanding is that a one-off fill up with e10 would cause no major problems immediately. I think the issue is to do with the higher moisture content of e10 causing corrosion and damage to seals etc where the fuel system is not designed to cope with it. This would show itself over time if e10 was used regularly. So definitely not recommended but unlikely to cause a disaster in the circumstances you mention.
 
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wapper

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One more reason to avoid ethanol-rich fuel is the fact that for this kind of car, fuel is likely to stay longer in the tank. After all, cabrios are used less frequently than normal cars, my own annual mileage is between 1000 and 2000km.
Staying longer in tank means ethanol will consume more water from the atmosphere, leading to the process of separation between petrol and ethanol+water components. This will produce nasty goo in the bottom of the tank.
So it is still better to avoid E10 whenever possible.

https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tool...e-and-how-to-protect-your-engines-against-it/
 

gar074

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Looks like it will be Super Unleaded-only for B owners in the UK from this September, as the Govt have announced the introduction of E10 fuel to replace the current E5 Unleaded. The lower ethanol content will only be available in Super Unleaded form (and worryingly, only for another 5 years...)

The Govt website confirms that B's are not compatible with E10

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol

Moisture content is clearly a problem, but as I understand it, E10 also causes accelerated degradation of rubber and plastic components, and corrodes some metals (eg copper, brass and aluminium). Apparently, there are additives that can counteract this (lead or lead-replacement? I'm not sure)

There's a useful article on the potential effects of ethanol on older cars, and some possible solutions, here:
https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/...w-about-using-e10-fuel-with-your-classic-car/

Occasional fills with E10 should be OK if there's no E5 available, but leaving a B with E10 in the tank for any length of time (and especially while laid up over the winter) sounds like a bad idea.

And BTW, for those who in the past would have been minded to blame the EU for this, this is a decision of our very own HMG.
 
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gar074

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Interestingly, some of the replies to that Hagerty article claim that the problems associated with using E10 fuel in older cars have been massively overstated, and that it may even help them run more smoothly!

Time for some deeper reading, methinks, if I can drag myself away from the England Heroes-to-Zeroes horror show in Ahmedabad!
 

s130

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But what about "B"s built in 2005. My handbook says 95RON. No E5 not E10.

So I checked my 500X 2015 handbook. Just 95 RON so E5/E10. Did have (EN228 specifications) but zilch for E5 or E10.

What a mess! How is an vehicle owner supposed to know without any doubt. Very confusing when the "RAC has warned owners of cars built before 2002 that they should steer clear of the new petrol" but the Government site says the Barchetta is not compatible.

Think I need to do some research (eg. EN228) I've been running our Strada 130TC on regular unleaded with added "jungle juice" for years with no problem. (yes I do check for valve recession and detonation issues).
 

gar074

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Unless the B's engine and fuel system changed in the later years of production, I'd assume that a 2005 model would also be incompatible with E10. The octane rating is beside the point. And the 2002 date is just a guideline: newly-designed engines from that date are likely to be compatible, engines that originate before that date may not be.

As for your 500X, the Govt website says:

"E10 petrol is cleared for all Fiat vehicles with petrol engines starting from 1st January 2001 (Euro 3 emission level), except the following vehicles:

Barchetta: 1.8 litre
Bravo/Brava (Type 182): 1.6 litre
Doblò: 1.6 litre
Marea: 1.6 and 2.0 litre
Multipla: 1.6 litre
Palio: 1.6 litre
Punto (Type 188): 1.8 litre
Stilo: 1.6 litre (only displacement 1.596 cm3), Stilo 1.8 litre and Stilo 2.4 litre
Owners of these vehicles, and Fiat cars from before 2001 should continue to use E5 petrol."
 
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s130

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Unless the B's engine and fuel system changed in the later years of production, I'd assume that a 2005 model would also be incompatible with E10.

Yes the engines did change.

The second phase MarkII engines are Engine Number: 188A6.000

Technically: CO2 emissionsin accordance with Directive 1999/100/CE which I think maps to Euro3 or better.

The earlier engines are: 183A1.000
 
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nicholasb

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I thought it was worth reviving this thread. I noticed my local supermarket has labelled all unleaded pumps as E10. Whether the actual fuel is E10 or not yet I don’t know. I noticed after putting some into the B as there wasn’t much to advertise it apart from a small E10 sign on the handle.

I wanted to make people aware again that this isn’t a fuel to fill the B with and that we need to seek out super unleaded now. This will require learning which petrol stations have Super. I’m not happy about it and hope that some of you will join me in moaning about it too.
 

Davefridge

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Super for me from now, I'm not risking the new **** in my car. Even if it runs OK on e10, the hygroscopic nature will cause problems when I winterise the car for 6 months. According to chat on main Fiat forum, some supermarkets have been a bit hasty with relabeling pumps and won't actually sell it before September. Some also say that Esso super has hardly any ethanol in it (according to Esso's website). Think I'll investigate that one.
 

Davefridge

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From Esso's website
Our Synergy Supreme+ 99 petrol has more cleaning power than our regular petrol – and includes molecules whose job it is to reduce the friction in your engine helping the moving parts work more efficiently.*

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.
 
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wapper

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Down here, it's the same - 95E10 is a standard sign meaning ethanol content 0-10%, and 98E5 means 0-5%. Most petrol stations actually sell 95 fuel with 10% of ethanol. However at least one provider sells 95 fuel with 0% ethanol. It has additional signs on pumps "does not contain biofuel".
They can do so because they fulfill their biofuel obligations in other way, by selling biomethane.
Needless to say, I only buy petrol from them.
 
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wapper

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That’s right sir :wave:

I expect the situation to become worse in years to come. EU has issued recommendations to promote usage of E20, E30 and even E85 in future. For diesel engines, B10, B15 and B30 are foreseen.
 

Davefridge

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The petition was set up by Mark Loveday earlier this month with the poll set to run until the start of February 2022.

He said: “[The petition aims to] reduce the fuel duty on premium E5 petrol, so prices become closer to those for standard, when E10 becomes standard at fuel pumps.

“Owners of E10 incompatible classic and future classic vehicles should not be made to pay more for fuel.
 

gar074

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Can't see that happening. They'll point to the fact that classic cars are exempt from road tax, conveniently omitting to mention that the vehicle has to be over 40 years old to qualify...
 
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