From what I have observed in the workshops, I think it reasonably safe to assume that the injector fuel correction test be performed at engine idle, no load, standard operating temp.
Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next
- Thread starter Fredastaire
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Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next
@Fredastaire I reckon we are on the same page. I have spent more than 50 years with oil and grease under my fingernails...suspect you may have as well.
Very much aware of the intricacies of the MTA gearbox - although it seems I may have been under the same false impression that the clutch was actually disengaged with neutral selected. A GOLD star to @MSjoberg for pointing out that it is not! I have just checked that with MES for confirmation, and alas is correct! (What were they thinking?) Might as well leave it in first gear whilst waiting at the traffic lights - foot no where near the accelerator of course! I change the DOT4 clutch fluid every year, the hydraulic fluid every 30,000km, and the gearbox oil every 80,000km.
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@theoneandonly Possibly that basic injector test is part of the kit bag of tests for the presented faults - in other words FIAT run through a basic tests list for the presented faults to ensure all possibilities are covered. (If an injector is failing, then it would show up in this basic test?) I guess failed injectors would possibly lead to over fuelling, and likely excessive regen temp, but as you say - there are a number of vehicles you have data for with likely damaged DPF's, but with injectors that pass that test. So, the repeated question - what is causing the DPF to fail? Is it because of the early incorrect SW version(s)? What ever became of @Baz in Kent ? I suppose he has sold his vehicle and moved on? His example was interesting to say the least. FIAT replaced pretty much the lot with new parts, except they used refurbished injectors in the first instance. The new cooler subsequently blocked in short time (with V32) and FIAT blamed the refurbed injectors as faulty and replaced everything new again - including new injectors. We have not heard from Baz since, which is a shame.
@theoneandonly Recent V32 Regen file attached
Fredastaire
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Baz put his van up for sale immediately after Fiats last rebuild, it took him a while to sell. He has changed holiday method and now only uses air BNB / cottages. (I was in contact with him so it's accurate info).
theoneandonly
Prominent member
I have a lot of baz's data and he was always concerned about the injectors and what did the values realy mean. There was evidence that the problem wasnt completely iradicated but at the time i wasnt completely trusting my interpretation and wasnt certain until just before the p0401 returned.
1 One problem i have is the lack of data on early software versions even dates of the individual updates.
2 what constitues an overfueling injector
3 dpf quality. One thing that ive said before and i know there will be no evidence to substantiate these thoughts (well not in the public domain) is that the ducato Dpf was of a new design and of a new production technology. I am not aware of the precise technology used (and no longer have contacts in Johnson Mathey) but with my knowledge of thick and thin technolgies to coat ceramics i can sermise there could have been in the early days batch related production issues that could lead to cracking .
So what is causing the DPF to fail?
Possibly a combination of UPTO 3 issues
Dodgy? software
Injectors
Suspect batch of DPF
What can we do to reduce the risk
As individuals
Get software updated
Use quality fuel or regular use of additives and injector cleaners
As a community
Try to understand fiats injector data to get an eary warning system
@theoneandonly @Fredastaire Thanks for the feedback re Baz. I suspected as much. I am late to this forum, but my thoughts are that it is unlikely we have the tools to discover/analyse what the underlying issue is. I will attach two new files for you to look at. One is the last run on V24 on the way to getting the SW update (100k drive), and the other is on the return from the update. If you want to compare V24 to V32, then I suggest you use the V24 data in this recent attached file with the V32_Rgen file I posted to you prior as you will find there are sections within both these files where vehicle speed, RPM, and throttle opening are very similar. I have spent way too much time trying to find any noticeable difference - and give up - I can't find anything that stands out. The difference may well be in the detail of the main injection cycle -timing, duration and quantity versus crank rotation. As you have suggested, it may well be a case of DPF lottery - some survive, some don't due to manufacturing issues. With regard to fuel standards, all diesel fuel sold in Australia must meet the regulated standard: https://www.legislation.gov.au/F2019L00456/latest/text
Sure, you can pay more money for marketing hyped "Premium" versions of the same fuel - which comes with extra additives like Marketing-BS, but I don't swallow the BS. It may be different in the UK. As to additives, I also do not buy into that either. Perhaps some service stations may have dodgy fuel due to storage issues/turnover, so I try to always buy from popular, well maintained and patronised service stations. Perhaps the issue may also be traced back to maintenance of the vehicle. Is everyone using the correct engine oil, and keeping service within spec. How about fuel filter maintenance etc? Vehicle stored outside in the rain may increase the likelihood of an issue. That is enough for now. Files attached:
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Interesting! I would however presume that the ”early days” for DPFs in Ducato were over when the dual EGR version was launched. Or did they change the DPF design at that time?
Yes they did: the Euro5 DPF was a simple tubular design underslung beneath the cab, while for Euro6 it became the convoluted design squeezed in down the back of the engine; possibly more complex to manufacture (given that it includes the DOC also) but I don't know.
Regarding theoneandonly's "What can we do to reduce the risk as individuals" surely not turning off the engine while the DPF is at active regeneration temperatures should be added to the list? To my mind at least, maintaining airflow through the matrix until it has cooled has to reduce the risk of cracking or indeed burning. It's certainly something I shall continue to due in the belief, perhaps false, that I'm giving my DPF the best chance of surviving.
theoneandonly
Prominent member
Absolutely correct, as to new design i got the info from Johnson Matheys website a couple of years ago. Should have screenshoted it , it probably doesnt exist today.
Not interupting a regen a good idea, but ive never known when one was occuring so can i reiterate @proppb question how can we tell when a regen is occuring?
theoneandonly
Prominent member
Thanks for the data , will probably have to wait till i get home next week before i get a good play. The fuel question do i need to use fuel additives is aggresively argued on uk fora so i leave upto individuals, but i use one with a cetane improver and injector cleaner, annualy i also use a specific injector cleaner. Does it work? In my eyes yes pherhaps easier to see with an old engine , on my skoda cayc 1.6 engine i got significanly better injector variances than previous, no visible results on my duke.
As to fuel filter changes i always used to be sceptical as to benefit as id never had issues and always seemed to be replacing the original (old petrol engines) but now im happy to waste a few $ £ mulas on new filters so i can see the fuel. Since barrys motor is now long gone i will add one significant fact that was found at his second refurb, he was given a fuel report that in plain english said nothing with a bit of searching my interetation was he had diesel bug. He was quite surprised. So i suspect diesel quality is more of an issue than we suspect.
There is no indication that a regen is underway. My vehicle has completed 52 regen cycles, and no indication whatsoever. The last 2 were observed deliberately using MES. If a regen is underway, and the vehicle is driven in a manner that cannot sustain the regen a warning does appear on the instrument panel to prompt the driver to continue driving. I have never observed that - it is from reading the manual. Can anyone confirm that the glow plugs are turned on during, or at the beginning of the regen process? It would be a very simple matter to tap into the supply cable to one of the injectors and connect an indicator circuit. I am thinking of a LED with series resistor of around 1.2 k ohm. A cable loom just under the left side headlight contains the individual glow plug cables from the control relay. Very easy to access as it is a split conduit loom.
@theoneandonly @Fredastaire Thinking a little outside the box here. Considering what you have reported re Baz, coupled with my experience of updating from V24 to V32; could it be that most of the SW updates have been more to do with minor ECM trim with respect to the engine, and more to do with fixing the issue of broken clutches? I am referring here to the clutch failure due to the breakage of plastic buffer plates on the clutch plate springs. Since updating from V24 to V32 I cannot see any difference using MES, but have noted a huge difference with regard to clutch and throttle operation during the gear change. The mapping has also been changed - including holding a gear longer - particularly on descents and ascents. The transmission shock has been considerably reduced. I am beginning to think that the DPF cracking issue may well be caused by faulty/failing injectors which are failing due to water in the fuel/poor quality fuel. It is the reason I suspected that lead me to enquire about "what happened to Baz" as his vehicle was a stand-out in pointing to this issue - and you have just confirmed that he likely had diesel bug - which can only exist if water is available. And once the DPF is cracked, we then start the merry-go-round that has been solved by the main players on this forum. Of course, this is pure conjecture.....
Fredastaire
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@deejays the cracked DPF can't be an injector problem itself. My injectors are untouched originals. On the csv files that @theoneandonly has many of mine, he always says that mine are the best he sees for variances.
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I would though expect that duff injectors will also wreck the DPF.
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I noticed the gear change improvements after the software upgrade however of late I've just done the MES clutch calibration and now realize how ratty my gear change had developed. Last week I had some serious clutch bouncing on an uphill climb in heavy stop start traffic, I suspected clutch failure hence doing the calibration. I shall now calibrate every two years.
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I would though expect that duff injectors will also wreck the DPF.
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I noticed the gear change improvements after the software upgrade however of late I've just done the MES clutch calibration and now realize how ratty my gear change had developed. Last week I had some serious clutch bouncing on an uphill climb in heavy stop start traffic, I suspected clutch failure hence doing the calibration. I shall now calibrate every two years.
@Fredastaire Hmm - Like I said - pure conjecture on my behalf. So there likely is some truth that the SW update does actually target the cause of the issue. Would be nice if FIAT (Stellantis) would be helpful and communicative regarding this. Need to talk about the clutch issue elsewhere other than this thread.
theoneandonly
Prominent member
@deejays interesting you mention clutch issues from the fiat doccumentation available, to me it appears there were versions intended for manual and versions for auto.(but 32 also seen on manuals) V25 was an auto update version 24 manual so may have had some part of the improvement from 24 to 25 but you jumped to 32.
how many software updates have you had (in mes) was 24 your original ? When was your cab built?
how many software updates have you had (in mes) was 24 your original ? When was your cab built?
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@theoneandonly As mentioned previously, build date was 2018 and came out of the factory with V24 for the ECM and FEA09DAT for the TCM. There have been no updates applied until recently where the ECM was updated to V32 and the TCM to FEA10DAU. It is a 150 hp Comfortmatic. According to the FCA Bulletin 10.023.19 there is no delineation between the auto vs manual for the ECM version update in that they both had the same quantity and series of updates, but each with their own particular details tailored for the auto and manual. So, the latest update for both manual and auto ECM's is V32.
Fredastaire
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Gentleman, the Fiat bulletin defined that where the vehicle was auto that the software for the auto would be updated, ie changed. In changing , the new version would need the clutch calibration anew as otherwise it wouldn't know where dimensionally where it was in function to be able to change gear.
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That's my thoughts
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That's my thoughts
@Fredastaire @theoneandonly With reference to the clutch calibration - I guess it depends how the new SW update is applied. For example, it is possible that all calibration settings are kept (stored) and SW update applied and all calibration settings restored.
