Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

Foot off throttle the LP EGR is always closed so any downhill will only show the static LP temperature say 60-65 degrees as there will be now through airflow of exhaust.

 

[theoneandonly]

Hope this makes sense.All data is from engines i have the data for except K (kang express data published here.)

Tables

mc​	max control value​
spike​	Arithmetic max ,eg maybe Physical maximum valve opening​

Engine​

Errors​

Version​

DPF sensor​

DPF sensor​

Injector max​

Injec Sum max​

LPEGR %​

LPEGR %​

LPEGR mm​

LPEGR mm​

LPEGR C​

LPEGR C​

HPEGR​

HPEGR​

air max​

max difference​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

A​

0​

28​

66​

3.6​

0.6​

86​

4​

4.6​

121​

2.5​

2000​

200​

B​

1​

32​

220​

300​

5.8​

1.2​

4.4​

4.6​

75​

87​

4.7​

857​

20​

C​

1​

115​

120​

3​

0.9​

0 - 84​

84​

4.9​

4.9​

42​

47​

2.5​

2000​

300​

E​

0​

32​

150​

180​

3​

0.6​

30​

85​

4.7​

4.7​

95​

110​

3.5​

2000​

1100​

K​

1​

32​

4​

5​

65​

G​

1​

32​

45​

60​

1.3​

0.8​

83​

83​

4.7​

4.7​

100​

118​

3.7​

3.7​

1350​

100​

S​

0​

32​

50​

95​

0.6​

0.1​

25​

30​

3​

4​

90​

110​

0​

1800​

600​

Z​

1​

23​

45​

95​

1​

0.6​

4.8​

80​

85​

2000​

600​

 

[theoneandonly]

I previously thought that the version restricted the LPEGR opening because mine had opened to 4 max and read a 24 had 3 max but Z discounts that. Now temperature confusion this the highest i have seen. this is todays blast 10 mile up M1 65mph. Full tank of fuel.just used tank tank that had 500ml of Liqui Moly diesel purge added (effectivly should all be used up).

 

[Baz in Kent]

Hope this makes sense.All data is from engines i have the data for except K (kang express data published here.)

Tables

mc​	max control value​
spike​	Arithmetic max ,eg maybe Physical maximum valve opening​

Engine​

Errors​

Version​

DPF sensor​

DPF sensor​

Injector max​

Injec Sum max​

LPEGR %​

LPEGR %​

LPEGR mm​

LPEGR mm​

LPEGR C​

LPEGR C​

HPEGR​

HPEGR​

air max​

max difference​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

Mc​

Spike​

A​

0​

28​

66​

3.6​

0.6​

86​

4​

4.6​

121​

2.5​

2000​

200​

B​

1​

32​

220​

300​

5.8​

1.2​

4.4​

4.6​

75​

87​

4.7​

857​

20​

C​

1​

115​

120​

3​

0.9​

0 - 84​

84​

4.9​

4.9​

42​

47​

2.5​

2000​

300​

E​

0​

32​

150​

180​

3​

0.6​

30​

85​

4.7​

4.7​

95​

110​

3.5​

2000​

1100​

K​

1​

32​

4​

5​

65​

G​

1​

32​

45​

60​

1.3​

0.8​

83​

83​

4.7​

4.7​

100​

118​

3.7​

3.7​

1350​

100​

S​

0​

32​

50​

95​

0.6​

0.1​

25​

30​

3​

4​

90​

110​

0​

1800​

600​

Z​

1​

23​

45​

95​

1​

0.6​

4.8​

80​

85​

2000​

600​

Thanks for this, very interesting especially the wide variances between engines which I wouldn’t have expected, although I guess the driving conditions will have been different.
I confess I don’t really understand Max Control and Spike.
Any analysis from the engineers here?

 

[theoneandonly]

For some parameters there is large variances on the same engine eh dpf Sensor can vary between 10 idle to 30-60 above 1500 with the occasional blip upto 100. Max Control I have taken as the max value that is still under control ,max of natural/generally encountered variances .Spike is a one off occurrence (more than one spike may occur) note this is not typical mechanical eng terminology.
One thing that hits me between the eyes is Injector variances, 2 engines running OK a,e run outside Fiat tolerances and 2 g,z run well within but have issues.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Thanks.
It would be good to know who’s using additives/cleaners, I’m not (yet).
Should injector analysis be based on the (very temporary) max number or average over a period of time? I can’t find anything definitive online but this would seem to be important.

 

[Fredastaire]

Thanks.
It would be good to know who’s using additives/cleaners, I’m not (yet).
Should injector analysis be based on the (very temporary) max number or average over a period of time? I can’t find anything definitive online but this would seem to be important.

I've been using Millers ecomax since last December. I can get LP EGR cooler temp up to 100 degrees occasionally on a dual carriageway run however I'm convinced my cooler is still part blocked. I wish I knew if the higher cetain burn does anything after the dpf where it tees off to the LP EGR system.
Ie have I any chance of it burning itself clean?

 

[Sedicivalvole92]

The only real fix for this issue is to replace intercooler, EGR cooler, both EGRs and DPF, possibly more than 1 injector if fuel return flow is greater than 10ml per 60 seconds.

The cheap way to fix this issue, is to remove the intercooler, EGRs, EGR cooler and DPF and have them cleaned professionally. You'll still have to get the software update and make sure fuel injectors are good.

I've recently had success with cleaning the components and had to replace 3 injectors.

Use a good quality EGR/DPF cleaner and leave components sit in the cleaner over night and flush out with hot water or send out to have done.

 

[Masztiff]

Hello
I see some low mileage engine injector variance same as mine.Out of the 2 -2 range.Anyone go to incjector service and check the problem real ir not ?

 

[Jamesbil]

Hello
I see some low mileage engine injector variance same as mine.Out of the 2 -2 range.Anyone go to incjector service and check the problem real ir not ?

I'm having different issues, but MES reported injector variance out of spec. So I removed them and took them to have them bench tested. Result was that they are as close to 100% good as possible.
Next step for me is to see if they are coded correctly.

 

[Masztiff]

I'm having different issues, but MES reported injector variance out of spec. So I removed them and took them to have them bench tested. Result was that they are as close to 100% good as possible.
Next step for me is to see if they are coded correctly.

Thank You the useful information.
I go to step 2 the dpf and egr check.The injectors i think work good also in my car.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Sedicivalvole92 @BobSlo please can you add notes on here about your chosen cleaning materials and methods used for cleaning:-
1/. the LP EGR valve itself
2/. The LP EGR Cooler (inc its mesh)
3/. The Intercooler radiator
If any other members can add info with regards to the above items cleaning and trade names of such cleaners please do. I'm preparing to sort mine in the next 10 days.

 

[Fredastaire]

Changing the LP cooler
question, have any of you done the job yourself at home of removing the LP EGR Cooler at home?
If yes, please can you add details of the 'how to'
im wondering how difficult it is lying on your back on a private drive at home. (Im aware that its a wheels off, subframe off before actually starting the real dismantling).

 

[Sedicivalvole92]

@Sedicivalvole92 @BobSlo please can you add notes on here about your chosen cleaning materials and methods used for cleaning:-
1/. the LP EGR valve itself
2/. The LP EGR Cooler (inc its mesh)
3/. The Intercooler radiator
If any other members can add info with regards to the above items cleaning and trade names of such cleaners please do. I'm preparing to sort mine in the next 10 days.

I used GAT DPF and EGR cleaner. I took all the components off, poured the cleaner inside them and let sit overnight. Make sure to fill them up as best possible. Then flush them out backwards used boiling water or as hot possible. Then blow them out with shop air. I did this twice with the EGR cooler and intercooler.

It's not a job that I'd recommend doing on the ground as you'll have to remove the suffrage to get the DPF and EGR cooler off.

 

[Fredastaire]

Update, I had the local garage change my LP EGR Cooler for my brand new one. took it for a run with MES recording live data that ive emailed to @theoneandonly , he is now to compare CSV files from the day before the cooler change. Then on the way home MES running showing live data for the LP throttle, LP EGR, LP EGR Cooler temperature. It was a 'light bulb moment' My Wife was watching the figures and reading them out, the EGR was opening and closing gradually all run, whilst max was seen at 4.7mm (I think), it was also hovering around 2.2 - 3mm, max temperature was 111 degrees. I'm of the opinion that the EGR is controlling how much hot gas it lets through and that it mixes it with the fresh air from the air filter, maybe the ecu is limiting the hot gas so it doesnt go higher than 111 degrees? The one and only has my figures so I await his comments. The question now is what has caused the soot build up in the tea strainer of the cooler? has the software 0032 stopped the overfueling or do I still have another problem to address.
I have another question / point; Ive replaced the cooler like for like with a new unused Fiat genuine part, however, my Fiat dealer says that the part number has been superceded by a new part number, however, they had no stock and neither did Coastal Motohomes hence fitting what I had to hand. Have any of you purchased the new part number and can report any visual difference?

 

[theoneandonly]

Fred
the LPEGR now does move about a bit more, simular to engine A.
the LPEGR temperature change speaks for itself.
other graphs include the difference between actual and desired air intake and boost . After tighter than Before
The dpf sensor results no obvious difference alwas been good numbers.

 

[theoneandonly]

Some more.
The LPEGR has a much wider spread of values post change
The LPEGR cooler temperature is higher but similar spread 40C

 

[Baz in Kent]

Thanks John, how do the EGR numbers relate to injector correction (overfuelling)?
I’ve done some analysis on my engine post-replacements, there are runs when the injector correction values are out of spec but this isn’t consistent, most of the time they’re well within +/-2.
Using a proxy for ”out of spec“ of 1.5 secs for each occasion, the worst run I’ve had was 10% of the time but this was quickly followed by 0.56%, each run at least 15 mins.
What I’ve done next is compare 2 instances with similar speed and RPM, one with bad and one with good injector correction values to see if I can identify anything from the comparison, however the numbers look pretty similar.
Clearly this isn’t an exhaustive check of all parameters (eg fuel pressure), does anyone have any suggestions or comments?
Cheers.

 

[theoneandonly]

Baz
here are 3 examples of your results post repair.

Ive also been looking at injector variances and trying various statistics to try a make some sort of sense hers a flavour from Engine A(mine) regularly showing 4.

 

[theoneandonly]

Baz
frequency distributions as above for your engine
note you also have a wide distribution on injector 1
ps error in groups corrected here