Confused by this country sometimes?

[Garree001]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8446563.stm

I know I may get told off, etc, etc for mentioning this, but is anyone else slightly puzzled as to why this has even happened? A memorial to someone who chose to run away from police onto a tube train just after a major terrorist incident. A man who shouldn't have been here and as we're endlessly reminded was a Brazillian electrician - so as he was here illegally, he wouldn't have been paying his way while carrying out his trade.

Was the guy a historical great? No. Did he do something amazing for society, or the greater population? No.

I am not for a second suggesting that he deserved to die, nor am I saying that this is not a tragedy, but I still remain puzzled by what this country does sometimes. Are there any memorials to British people who were shot in other countries while they weren't meant to be there and whilst running away from armed police who were trying to prevent another mass killing?

 

[dave]

didnt he have a walkman on so he didn't even know there was any police telling him to stop?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

didnt he have a walkman on so he didn't even know there was any police telling him to stop?

Shouldn't have had it that loud then? Again not saying that he deserved to die, but you should be aware of your surrounds, which he obviously wasn't if listening to music so loud that he couldn't hear the police?

 

[Garree001]

If he had a walkman on, how did he know they were there in order to run in the first place? OK - should he have seen them instead of hearing them - it's not like the police dress like the rest of us, is it? Either way, it was obvious who they were unless they were in plain clothes. Were they in plain clothes?

I am just confused about the whole idea of a memorial in this instance.

 

[punto_matt]

Yeah they were plain clothes. Would of been a bit sh*t them following a suspected terrorist if they were in full gear lol

 

[missey]

I seem to remember that he ran as he saw some nutter (as he thought) running towards him with a gun.

I can't quote all the things that had gone wrong with this case, but I do seem to remember that faults towards police handling and warning shouts etc were not done correctly.

So to the OP If my son was gunned down in London on the tube, simply because he was scared and ran, I would be wanting a memorial for him too.

If he was at fault, if the police had not done a wrongun, then I doubt the settlement would have been a six figure sum.

 

[Garree001]

Matt, I thought he was being followed by plain clothed officers who called in the armed police? Could be wrong though.

And missey. What's the point of the memorial? It reminds strangers of a nobody who did the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what good's a 6 figure compensation payment when your son's dead? Hardly something you can place a price on and how can suffering of that kind be measured in a number?

 

[missey]

And missey. What's the point of the memorial? It reminds strangers of a nobody who did the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what good's a 6 figure compensation payment when your son's dead? Hardly something you can place a price on and how can suffering of that kind be measured in a number?

Nah I don't think any money could replace a loved one. I know my kids could never be replaced with any amount of cash...no way.
But it is a sign of guilt from the police force in that case, imo.

And the point of the memorial, for the family, it will mean everything. The same as a gravestone is in a cemetery.
And to the family, he wasn't a nobody.

 

[missey]

O and just to add, the memorial looks bit better than what was there, tbh it was an eyesore before, bits of timber candles and photos.

 

[Chas Uno]

I can't quote all the things that had gone wrong with this case, but I do seem to remember that faults towards police handling and warning shouts etc were not done correctly.

Maybe, but he was still here illegally and thus shouldn't have been here in the first place. This was obviously a major factor in causing him to run from the Police, plain clothed or not, which ultimately led to the tragedy.

 

[bozzy]

Seems more of an opportunity to disgrace the police rather than serve as a memory to the victim. Happy to see it in place if it serves as a reminder as to terrorism that was/is in effect.

 

[jnoiles]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8446563.stm

I know I may get told off, etc, etc for mentioning this, but is anyone else slightly puzzled as to why this has even happened? A memorial to someone who chose to run away from police onto a tube train just after a major terrorist incident. A man who shouldn't have been here and as we're endlessly reminded was a Brazillian electrician - so as he was here illegally, he wouldn't have been paying his way while carrying out his trade.

No he wasn't here illegally. He had an illegal stamp in his passport but at the time he was shot, he was in the country legally. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7048756.stm

And you're telling me that if a man with no identifiable police marking came running at you screaming and waving a gun you'd casually stop and gently ask him what he was up to? Come on.

Was the guy a historical great? No. Did he do something amazing for society, or the greater population? No.

Did he get shot many times in the head at point blank range for doing nothing wrong? Why yes, yes he did. No one involved in that mess had a particularly good day but a memorial tends to remind us what happens when we let paranoia and organisational incompetence run rampant under the banner of 'security'.

I am not for a second suggesting that he deserved to die, nor am I saying that this is not a tragedy, but I still remain puzzled by what this country does sometimes. Are there any memorials to British people who were shot in other countries while they weren't meant to be there and whilst running away from armed police who were trying to prevent another mass killing?

If your wife/son/daughter/etc was shot in the face half a dozen times by homeland security while riding the subway in New York City and those that did it got, at worst, a slap on the wrist for a health and safety violation and at best a promotion you don't think you might want to at least commemorate the occasion?

You say you don't understand this country sometimes. Neither do I. The lack of compassion and basic human decency is alarming. Grow up, someone's kid is dead and all you can think to do is point out (wrongly) that he's an illegal immigrant and did nothing special?

 

[dave]

i thought he had earphones on playing music so couldn't hear no one any way?

 

[stephen01]

while this is a tradgey, we are all looking at this after the fact, ask your self what would you have done in the officers situation? day after 50 odd people have been killed, 4 terror suspects running around london and you believe one has just got onto a train? what would the comments about the police be if he had infact been a terriost and another train had been blown up and more people had been killed?

its easy to just say 'yeah but he wasnt' but this is after the fact, can anyone really say what you would do in that situation?

hopefully the family can now have a bit of closure on what has happned and carry on with life...

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

So armed police go around in plain clothes also?

I thought ones with guns were in uniform with the bullet proof vests on?

 

[Garree001]

No he wasn't here illegally. He had an illegal stamp in his passport but at the time he was shot, he was in the country legally. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7048756.stm

He had a conterfeit stamp in his passport and there was no certainty over when he came and went - but it was obvious that he did come and go in order to play the legal loopholes...

And you're telling me that if a man with no identifiable police marking came running at you screaming and waving a gun you'd casually stop and gently ask him what he was up to? Come on.

Armed police do wear police clothing - as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Did he get shot many times in the head at point blank range for doing nothing wrong? Why yes, yes he did. No one involved in that mess had a particularly good day but a memorial tends to remind us what happens when we let paranoia and organisational incompetence run rampant under the banner of 'security'.

He did something wrong though, that's just it - he ran from blokes shouting "armed police". Pretty stupid to have done that in my opinion. And a memorial does not remind about an organisation's incompetance. I don't see the words on the memorial saying "deMenezes - shot by the Met Police as a mistake". No, it does not remind us of any errors on that day.

If your wife/son/daughter/etc was shot in the face half a dozen times by homeland security while riding the subway in New York City and those that did it got, at worst, a slap on the wrist for a health and safety violation and at best a promotion you don't think you might want to at least commemorate the occasion?

Yes - I never said there was anything wrong with remembering that occasion. His family can do that all they want - but how does a memorial for this man help? It's not like we, or his family, will forget about him if its not there...

You say you don't understand this country sometimes. Neither do I. The lack of compassion and basic human decency is alarming. Grow up, someone's kid is dead and all you can think to do is point out (wrongly) that he's an illegal immigrant and did nothing special?

I think the UK is one of the most compassionate countries in the world. Too much so when you can get sentenced to a period in jail and be let out in under half your sentence if you behave. And in fairness - the immigration aspect is only one spoke of this wheel of a mess - and it's the spoke you seem most annoyed about. You suggest that I need to grow up for talking about the whole variety of issues (his actions, why he got a memorial, his status in the UK, his not paying into the system and how other countries may have 'remembered'), when all you read into it is the immigration arguement? Sure.... Hypocrite. And it was not wrong to suggest he was here illegally - as mentioned above.

And I think that stephen01 has made a very sensible point - could you imagine what sort of discussions would have been had if this was the other way round?

 

[punto_matt]

So armed police go around in plain clothes also?

I thought ones with guns were in uniform with the bullet proof vests on?

They do but you also get plain clothes armed officers. Not hard for them to wear the vest under normal clothes is it.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

They do but you also get plain clothes armed officers. Not hard for them to wear the vest under normal clothes is it.

True, but basically the ones that shoot him wee wearing uniform, so he shouldn't have run

 

[hmallett]

didnt he have a walkman on so he didn't even know there was any police telling him to stop?

No. He wasn't told to stop anyway. He wasn't challenged at all by police, merely pointed out, then grabbed and shot dead.

He did something wrong though, that's just it - he ran from blokes shouting "armed police". Pretty stupid to have done that in my opinion.

He did not run from the police. He couldn't have run from them, as they didn't identify themselves to him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559318/Menezes-could-not-have-saved-his-life.html

 

[punto_matt]

Nah he shouldnt. I dont rellay feel any sympathy for him tbh. Yeah he was foreign but thats no excuse i dont think. If your coming over to this country you should know what our police wear.