Technical Clutch high bite point, new clutch?

[DaveMcT]

A new slave cylinder (e.g. LuK) will cost about £35. Get one and remove the original. If it's substandard fit the new one. If its OK return the new one. Cost is postage. No need to faff with the plastic hydraulic pipe. Just pull the hairpin clip** and pull the hose end out of the cylinder. Wrap a small cable tie around the clip to keep hold of it when you pull it out. They are inclined to ping away into the weeds.

If the wrong clutch has been fitted you'll be replacing everything anyway. My diesel had a standard 1.4 petrol clutch. The centre was dropping to pieces.

I use bettens into the wing drain channels with a 3 x 2 timber over the top of the engine and a ratchet tie down strap. Wrap strap under the gearbox up against the bell-housing and over the 3 x 2. Put a stand and wood blocks under engine to support the weight and remove gearbox bolts, mounting, driveshafts, etc. When you pull the gearbox off the engine the strap will take its weight. Loosen the strap, use a jack to lower gearbox down. I like to do it in stages alternately loosening the strap and lowering the jack but with help you can do it in one go.

The strap is great for putting the gearbox back into the car. The hard part is aligning it for angle and especially rotation. The strap takes the weight while you set it up to slide into place.

An old Panda gearbox will have a hardened input shaft oil seal and possibly a worn bearing. There's a guide on this forum for replacing the parts. Failure to fix these will quickly lead to oil on the clutch.

 

[Mike1alike]

If it's less, most likely you need a new master cylinder. Check the slave if there are traces of fluid leak, but usually there isn't, just needs new master cylinder.

 

[DaveMcT]

If it's less, most likely you need a new master cylinder. Check the slave if there are traces of fluid leak, but usually there isn't, just needs new master cylinder.

In my experience, the master sucks in air before it causes other trouble. Air in the system causes the pedal to stick down. Try bleeding the system first, but if the master is goosed, you will need the slave anyway.

 

[koalar]

80% I'd say.

Without seeing it at first read it didn't sound right

I had three which have all been roughly 60%

But loads have complained of the same

Search results for query: High bite point

www.fiatforum.com

Is the fluid still near the max mark

Worth checking if carpet stuck under pedal

 

[koalar]

@irc could it be normal

I haven't seen one thats very high myself

But there's 3x here alone

Clutch biting point - Panda Diesel | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

I always thought the biting point was high on the clutch of my panda diesel since i bought it brand new in Feb with 8 miles on it. Does anybody else agree? it's something you get used to but the bite on my previous car was pretty much on the floor, the Panda's is about 2 inches from the top...

www.fiatforum.com

Dated 2008 so the cars were pretty new

Am guessing but if there's no leaks, squeaks, slipping or stiffness it's probably okay to leave alone

@rosstaylor nothing to do with your feature, but it's worth checking this inspection hole

Between the engine and the battery under the coolant pipes

You can see the clutch

It should be brown with clutch dust, if it's black and oily then the gearbox has to come down anyway

 

[irc]

@irc could it be normal

It could be.
Had a couple that definitely felt a bit higher than "normal" for no obvious reason. Neither belonged to me, and the owners didn't seem to be concerned about it. I only noticed because I regularly drive various Pandas, and they felt different. Took an adjustment of driving style to pull away smoothly.

That's why I suggested OP tried another Panda to compare. If its just a marginal difference then there's probably nothing wrong.

I do remember one with a "lazy" master cylinder which randomly felt high, normal and "dead", but it had been sat for about 3 years without moving (also had clutch plate stuck to flywheel - freeing it up might have pushed the master cylinder over the edge). New master and slave solved it, and the clutch must have cleaned itself up as its still on the road 4+ years later.

 

[Mike1alike]

In my experience, the master sucks in air before it causes other trouble. Air in the system causes the pedal to stick down. Try bleeding the system first, but if the master is goosed, you will need the slave anyway.

To suck air in... the system is sealed. If it would be from outside (the air) fluid would leak too cause it goes both ways. The only thing making air inside the master would be if bleeding wasn't done well, even so, technically air goes in areas sitting high, mainly slave cylinder and the outcome is what you described, pedal sticks down.

What very often happens is the wear of the top seal inside the master cylinder. The master cylinder piston is sort of unusual, double piston at both ends of the rod. And there are 2 seals, too. If the one on pedal's end wears out, fluid leaks under the pedal and system doesn't work anymore. If the one on top of cylinder wears out, piston can't push all needed volume of fluid to slave cylinder anymore and after halfway press of the pedal, fluid starts going back to the tank instead of going forward to the slave cylinder.

 

[Mike1alike]

@rosstaylor, any progress there?

 

[rosstaylor]

@rosstaylor, any progress there?

No I don't have time at the moment. Plus, it works OK, just a high bite point. I feel like I've got a lot of things to check, none of which I really understand.

 

[Mike1alike]

Plus, it works OK, just a high bite point

That is not ok. There are things to check, you'll probably do that when things get worse or at least figure out what happened.
I'll put all possible things together.

A very high clutch bite point (engaging right near the top of the pedal travel) is usually a sign of wear or a hydraulic issue. Here are the real causes, from most to least common, and how to tell which applies.

1. Worn clutch friction plate (MOST COMMON)
As the clutch disc wears thinner the pressure plate has to move further to clamp it and the clutch engages closer to the top of the pedal travel.
Typical signs: bite point near the top, clutch may slip under hard acceleration (especially in higher gears), no change after bleeding.
*This is the classic “clutch on its way out” symptom.

2. Self-adjusting pressure plate at its limit
Most modern clutches (including Fiat) use a self-adjusting pressure plate. It compensates for wear automatically. When near its adjustment limit, engagement rises sharply, effect being: sudden increase in bite point and pedal feel may change (lighter or heavier).

3. Hydraulic system issues (already mentioned this)
A problem in the hydraulics can reduce effective release travel.
If there is air in the system, air compresses resulting clutch doesn’t fully disengage and engagement happens high. Bleeding can temporarily improve it.
If worn master or slave cylinder, internal seals bypass fluid, pedal travel lost.
Signs: Bite point changes from day to day, pedal may feel spongy or slow to return, fluid level may not drop noticeably.

4. Release mechanism wear (fork / bearing / guide tube)
Wear here reduces usable travel and alters engagement point. Usually comes with noise when pressing pedal and rough or inconsistent feel.

5. Incorrect clutch kit fitted (not your case now, but be aware not to get there)
Less common, but it happens. Can be wrong pressure plate geometry or incorrect release bearing height.
Results are odd bite point from day one and often paired with poor pedal feel.

 

[koalar]

This thread is already getting messy

And getting very confusing if we just keep copying everything written on the internet

Some of which are for completely different types of clutch systems

Some of which is totally wrong when applied to the system used in the panda

We only need fixes relevance to the original posters problem and car

Are we talking about a factory feature/charactistic that ensures full disengagement of the clutch when the pedal is depressed, reducing wear from a dragging clutch

Some of the Hyundai are opposite and have a very low bite point, swapping between the two there's an adjustment period when swapping between the two

Theres got to be a greater than 50/50 chance there's nothing to fix, A test drive of another panda or 500 or someone who knows the car trying yours has to be the first move

 

[DaveMcT]

To suck air in... the system is sealed. If it would be from outside (the air) fluid would leak too cause it goes both ways. The only thing making air inside the master would be if bleeding wasn't done well, even so, technically air goes in areas sitting high, mainly slave cylinder and the outcome is what you described, pedal sticks down.

What very often happens is the wear of the top seal inside the master cylinder. The master cylinder piston is sort of unusual, double piston at both ends of the rod. And there are 2 seals, too. If the one on pedal's end wears out, fluid leaks under the pedal and system doesn't work anymore. If the one on top of cylinder wears out, piston can't push all needed volume of fluid to slave cylinder anymore and after halfway press of the pedal, fluid starts going back to the tank instead of going forward to the slave cylinder.

Before I owned a panda I would have said the same. But I have had three - sooner or later, every one of them needed the clutch bleeding. There was no fluid leakage. Bleed the system and two weeks later its just as bad. The first two got new slaves to no avail. Fitted a new masters (you cannot get the seals only) and problem solved. The last one had the best slave of the three and its working fine. The system has to be sucking enough when lifting the pedal to draw in air. There's no other way it can happen.

I can see how fluid could somehow recirculate through the master cylinder, but simply bleeding the system would not fix the issue. In my experience bleeding does give a temporary fix.

My attitude now is (1) bleed the system and wait for the problem to return.
(2) When the problem returns, bleed it again and order a new master cylinder. The cast zinc is the best usually sold as a Ford Ka item.
(3) Fit new master pull the hair pin to disconnect the pipe. Bleed the system.
(4) If you are feeling rich, change the slave at same time. But one of mine has a very old slave cylinder that's still working fine.

 

[rosstaylor]

Before I owned a panda I would have said the same. But I have had three - sooner or later, every one of them needed the clutch bleeding. There was no fluid leakage. Bleed the system and two weeks later its just as bad. The first two got new slaves to no avail. Fitted a new masters (you cannot get the seals only) and problem solved. The last one had the best slave of the three and its working fine. The system has to be sucking enough when lifting the pedal to draw in air. There's no other way it can happen.

I can see how fluid could somehow recirculate through the master cylinder, but simply bleeding the system would not fix the issue. In my experience bleeding does give a temporary fix.

My attitude now is (1) bleed the system and wait for the problem to return.
(2) When the problem returns, bleed it again and order a new master cylinder. The cast zinc is the best usually sold as a Ford Ka item.
(3) Fit new master pull the hair pin to disconnect the pipe. Bleed the system.
(4) If you are feeling rich, change the slave at same time. But one of mine has a very old slave cylinder that's still working fine.

Thanks very much. Just to be clear the symptom or problem that you always get, is it the high bite point?

 

[Mike1alike]

I can see how fluid could somehow recirculate through the master cylinder, but simply bleeding the system would not fix the issue. In my experience bleeding does give a temporary fix.

I meant bleeding if it was not properly done to begin with. If problem occurs after it was working fine for quite some time, surely bleeding it would only improve it for a couple of days.

Fitted a new masters (you cannot get the seals only) and problem solved.

Yes, of course. That's what I was talking about. Now that you've pointed that out, I think what I said might be taken in some other way by some people. I thought it was clear enough, to begin with.
So yes, if seal brakes new master cylinder is needed and that will be the fix.

 

[rosstaylor]

I meant bleeding if it was not properly done to begin with. If problem occurs after it was working fine for quite some time, surely bleeding it would only improve it for a couple of days.


Yes, of course. That's what I was talking about. Now that you've pointed that out, I think what I said might be taken in some other way by some people. I thought it was clear enough, to begin with.
So yes, if seal brakes new master cylinder is needed and that will be the fix.

But you haven't said what the problem you were getting was. I just wanted to clarify, were you getting a high bite point?

 

[koalar]

Air in the system causes low bite point

 

[Mike1alike]

But you haven't said what the problem you were getting was. I just wanted to clarify, were you getting a high bite point?

With bad master cylinder you do get high bite point at first. Then very soon you can't even change gears.
Yours does point more to exactly the name of the topic, new clutch needed.
I did say to verify first if master-slave cylinders system is ok, because that is very easy to do. You do that check before getting to put new clutch in.

 

[Mike1alike]

With bad master cylinder you do get high bite point at first.

Actually... low bite point there usually. I got them mixed up!

High bit point happens (with faulty master that is) if seal is not allowing proper refill, compensation port being blocked. Than fluid cannot fully return to the master cylinder reservoir and system remains slightly pressurized and slave cylinder stays partially extended. Clutch is partly disengaged then, even with pedal released.