Technical Clutch help please...

[Pan]

My 2006 1.2 Dynamic is suffering from the clutch sticking in when the engine gets warm, only mildly at the moment and only after 40 or so mins driving.
Took it into my usual garage and they said the slave cylinder may need replacing.
But when they looked at again properly the pipe connecting the slave to the master is corroded, so advised swapping the master cylinder as well.
Getting hold of the correct master cylinder is proving to be a problem, 2 local indy suppliers have now given the wrong one.
I've spoken to Fiat themselves and they're wanting £200 for one - although at the moment that is tempting, just to get the right part.

Can anyone give me a part number for the part below, including the pipe, at all....?

View attachment 400847View attachment 400848

 

[koalar]

18103/00 - CLUTCH RELEASE HYDRAULIC CONTROL

FIAT NUOVA PANDA (2003-2009)

eper.fiatforum.com

you could try Ford dealer as well. Its the same in the second generation Ka

 

[DaveMcT]

The culprit is more likely the master cylinder. The seals wear and suck air on the return stroke. The slave can look rough, but the seals are always under pressure so they last longer. You can prove it by bleeding the system. There wont be any leaks but over a short time the problem returns.

The master cylinder I used on our 1.2 Dynamic https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/abs/14366705

I also fitted this clutch slave https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/luk/630798 you only need the coiled pipe when replacing the entire system. It just unplugs from the cylinder.

However, when I opened the old slave, it's seals looked good as new and the cylinder bore was clean. I probably wasted £40 or rather spent before I really needed to do.

 

[Pan]

The culprit is more likely the master cylinder. The seals wear and suck air on the return stroke. The slave can look rough, but the seals are always under pressure so they last longer. You can prove it by bleeding the system. There wont be any leaks but over a short time the problem returns.

The master cylinder I used on our 1.2 Dynamic https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/abs/14366705

I also fitted this clutch slave https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/luk/630798 you only need the coiled pipe when replacing the entire system. It just unplugs from the cylinder.

However, when I opened the old slave, it's seals looked good as new and the cylinder bore was clean. I probably wasted £40 or rather spent before I really needed to do.

Thanks.
See thats the part I've got for the master (although a bit pissed off the local motor factors charged £150 for it...!!!) and the garage told me it's wrong, and its the same as the one they got sent a few months ago - apparently the there's a big waiting period for some stuff at the moment and places are struggling to get hold of stuff - that's why I tried to help and get it myself.
I think all they're really wanting is the plastic pipe that joins the master and slave together - they said they didn't want to re-use the existing one as it was corroded.

 

[Pan]

this one looks more like the one thats on, with a plastic body....

https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/luk/12771438

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm a bit of a fan for Shop4parts - with whom I have no connection apart from being a very satisfied customer - They seem to recommend this: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=27287 Everything they've supplied me with has been correct and of good quality (there's a small forum discount available to donated members too) so why not try giving them a ring with your VIN/chassis number? I've always found them patient and very knowledgeable.

Ps. the aluminium connector corroding is a well known problem which, if you're doing the job yourself can be got round in various "unofficial" ways that a garage wouldn't entertain.

PPs looks like Pan is recommending that LUK one too?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Another wee bit of info. Just went out and "popped" the bonnet on Becky (our 2010 Panda Dynamic Eco 1.2) and she's definitely got a plastic clutch master cylinder which looks exactly like the LUK one we are looking at here.

Hope that maybe helps a wee bit?

Ps. S4p were shipping free for orders over £25 last time I ordered from them.

 

[RalphM]

The slave on my Diesel panda is a plastic one it was squeaky and a little sticky when hot,
got some red rubber grease and stuffed some inside the cylinder put the cover back on
and over a few days it got better and as now been perfect since last Aug , it may play up
again I have no way of knowing but it's fine for now.

 

[Pan]

Spoke to a very nice man at Fiat and he says the plastic version was replaced on later models by the aluminum version, so thats why there's 2.
From Fiat (in stock) it's £175 + vat.
It must be the indy parts have cocked up on the part number?? Because searching '55187040' actually brings up both versions.

I'm just hanging on until I go back to the motor factors tomorrow to take back the aluminium one they gave me and see what else they can get.
There's also this on eBay which is promising too...

OEM Fiat Ford Clutch Master Cylinder 1544174 55187040 KA 500 panda | eBay

Manual Transmission.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Pan]

I'm a bit of a fan for Shop4parts - with whom I have no connection apart from being a very satisfied customer - They seem to recommend this: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=27287 Everything they've supplied me with has been correct and of good quality (there's a small forum discount available to donated members too) so why not try giving them a ring with your VIN/chassis number? I've always found them patient and very knowledgeable.

Ps. the aluminium connector corroding is a well known problem which, if you're doing the job yourself can be got round in various "unofficial" ways that a garage wouldn't entertain.

PPs looks like Pan is recommending that LUK one too?

Cheers buddy - thats good to know about that place.

 

[DaveMcT]

The expensive master cylinder is supplied complete with fully filled pipeline and non-drip QD connector. It's a fast fit at the factory where the top part is fitted to the body and bottom part is fitted to the engine. Engine goes in, ends plug together and job done. It's a hassle on a competed car as you have to unclip and extract the old pipe then fit the new one without breaking the clips.

The snag for replacement seals is that nobody sells a repair kit. The parts will exists but how would you find them? Thankfully, the cast master cylinder is not silly money and is a straight swap for the fabricated tube version. You unplug the pipes (don't lose the spring pin retainers), unbolt the cylinder, pop off the pedal ball joint and its out of the car.

In UK at least, the aluminium QD connector does corrode. That's unlikely to cause a leak but it does make removal pretty much impossible. Damage the connector and you are stuck with fitting a new pre-filled (expensive) slave and master along with their new connectors. It's far easier to unplug the hydraulic pipes and swap the cylinders.

 

[Pan]

The expensive master cylinder is supplied complete with fully filled pipeline and non-drip QD connector. It's a fast fit at the factory where the top part is fitted to the body and bottom part is fitted to the engine. Engine goes in, ends plug together and job done. It's a hassle on a competed car as you have to unclip and extract the old pipe then fit the new one without breaking the clips.

The snag for replacement seals is that nobody sells a repair kit. The parts will exists but how would you find them? Thankfully, the cast master cylinder is not silly money and is a straight swap for the fabricated tube version. You unplug the pipes (don't lose the spring pin retainers), unbolt the cylinder, pop off the pedal ball joint and its out of the car.

In UK at least, the aluminium QD connector does corrode. That's unlikely to cause a leak but it does make removal pretty much impossible. Damage the connector and you are stuck with fitting a new pre-filled (expensive) slave and master along with their new connectors. It's far easier to unplug the hydraulic pipes and swap the cylinders.

I did wonder if the newer aluminum part could just be used with the existing pipework, but on speaking to my garage they seem reluctant to put a new master and slave in and then re-use the old corroded pipe - I think the fast fit connectors on the pipe can be an absolute pain to remove.
But, this arrived this morning (£98 from Ebay) so I'll drop it in back with them and they'll put it in with a new slave cylinder - hopefully...!

 

[DaveMcT]

The existing pipes on our 2007 cars are blue plastic. Corrosion is unlikely.

But a complete new system for an additional £50 is not a silly idea. Get the garage to wrap the QD connector with Denso tape to keep the salt out. It will be more likely separate when you need it to.

 

[koalar]

clutch pedal sticking in is a very common fault with the slave cylinder.

Just confirming it by greasing. Then change just the slave would have been a much, quicker, simpler, cheaper option

the pipe or connections dont need to be touched

Is it necessary to change the slave cylinder | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

not sure its a Good idea But this is a sticking slave cylinder off a 500 Its already been changed. But the original appears to be in Good condition apart from the guide part of the piston has run dry. The grease appears to naturally push out the front. There quite easy to dismantle. the dust...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[DaveMcT]

The clutch normally pushes the pedal up. Sticking clutch pedal is caused by lack of fluid or trapped air in the system.

When there is trapped air (or when bleeding the system), the pedal goes down and wont return by itself, because there is not enough fluid to push the master cylinder (and pedal) back to its normal rest position.

 

[koalar]

The clutch normally pushes the pedal up. Sticking clutch pedal is caused by lack of fluid or trapped air in the system.

When there is trapped air (or when bleeding the system), the pedal goes down and wont return by itself, because there is not enough fluid to push the master cylinder (and pedal) back to its normal rest position.

I find the little white piston sticks in the cylinder, stopping it returning is the main cause. Done 3 now no other parts used, no need to touch the quick connector. Nice, simple, quick, cheap just needs confirming by removing the dust cover and spraying with silicon grease. If it improves, this is where the problem is.


Obviously if you change all parts the fault will be fixed.

Air in the system would normally result in a lower pedal release or not releasing at all

 

[DaveMcT]

I've had both of my replaced slave cylinders apart both were as good as new inside. One was replaced when I didn't know better. The other because the bleed screw had rusted and the hex snapped off so I could not bleed it.
The first master cylinder had a rounded-off edge on the outer seal. I could not get new seals and managed to get the fully filled kit for £75 plus another £35 for the slave I'd already replaced.
The second one was going to cost £175 for the fully filled kit so I dug into the spares market and found one branded for Ford Ka (but actually listed with the Fiat part number). That cost £56, so I risked the return delivery cost and bought it.

 

[koalar]

i suspect the original poster only needed the slave doing

taking it to a garage actually over complicated the issue

Although if it was me I would have confirmed the slave was faulty First by the above method

these cars are cheap as chips to run if you only change what's required. There's dozens of people that have only changed the slave and its fixed the sticking pedal. If you follow the links within the link above you will see a few more people where it only need the slave not to mention in the 500 section

 

[timmycm850]

I've just changed just the slave cylinder as our pipes are clean and our pedal was very light at the bottom. It cured the clutch issue.

Also on our gearbox we could do a rapid gear change and catch the gears if we were to quick.

Interestingly though. I've taken out the modern fully synthetic gear oil and put mineral oil in it. So the gear oil was too good as it didn't allow the synchro to work properly. The gear change now is vastly improved.

Thanks everyone for the discussions

Tim

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I've just changed just the slave cylinder as our pipes are clean and our pedal was very light at the bottom. It cured the clutch issue.

Also on our gearbox we could do a rapid gear change and catch the gears if we were to quick.

Interestingly though. I've taken out the modern fully synthetic gear oil and put mineral oil in it. So the gear oil was too good as it didn't allow the synchro to work properly. The gear change now is vastly improved.

Thanks everyone for the discussions

Tim

Can you give details of the actual oil you've used? manufacturer and specifications - ie Viscosity (for example SAE 80/90) and grade (ACEA or API spec) always helpful to us to know.