I think BSM have diseasels and petrols.
Technical Clutch failure @ 12,000 miles
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Technical Clutch failure @ 12,000 miles
OP
OP
In which case the 1.4 is even more likely to fail... Maybe the Abarths are upgraded?
Bear in mind the first clutch (that in most peoples opinion should have been warranty) @ 4 months cost approaching £700....
Bear in mind the first clutch (that in most peoples opinion should have been warranty) @ 4 months cost approaching £700....
Ryuno
New member
I'm learning with BSM and it's a 1.2.
D4nny8oy
Established member
A leaking clutch master cylinder would cause the clutch to not release, making gear selection difficult, especially 1st and reverse.
It would not cause clutch slip and excessive wear.
At the end of the day, no-one else is having major clutch wear issues in the 500, Panda or Ka or requiring an uprated clutch, even the 1.2 petrol and 1.3mjet BSM cars- so it points to an issue with the driver (or one of them).
OP
OP
Apparently there was no sign of it having actuation difficulties, I`m wondering if it was slightly sticking, causing excess slipping when lifting the off the pedal, maybe not noticably, but enough to wear the clutch that bit quicker...
As I said he`s not had clutch issues on previous cars, either driving school cars or his own, also he doesnt have pupils long enough for any one person to cause excess wear, as they tend to pass very quickly with him.
As I said he`s not had clutch issues on previous cars, either driving school cars or his own, also he doesnt have pupils long enough for any one person to cause excess wear, as they tend to pass very quickly with him.
OP
OP
Right, I just spoke to him in more detail.
He said that the clutch feels completely different now, like when the car was new, its much lighter, the biting points lower & theres no noise.
When I asked him about that, he said after the 1st clutch was changed (@12k), it was noticably noisier & the biting point & `feel` changed, he picked them up on this & took it back, but they could see no problem. Then that second one went around 25k, but that was done under warranty, so he never got to see how it had worn.
The 3rd clutch felt the same as the 2nd that had failed, but he didnt take it back because he knew they`d give him the same diagnosis...
Then that 3rd one died last week (@around 46k), that wasnt done under warranty & the clutch master was changed, they said it was leaking, he said there was no sign of any leaks (its parked on a stone block drive at night & theres no oil marks), he also said he`d checked the fluid & it wasnt low (but was dirty).
There you go... its now `like new again` to quote the customer, I maintain there was/is an issue with the car, maybe it was that master, & if it was, the £1100 worth of clutches he paid for should have been under warranty, but draw your own conclusions.
He said that the clutch feels completely different now, like when the car was new, its much lighter, the biting points lower & theres no noise.
When I asked him about that, he said after the 1st clutch was changed (@12k), it was noticably noisier & the biting point & `feel` changed, he picked them up on this & took it back, but they could see no problem. Then that second one went around 25k, but that was done under warranty, so he never got to see how it had worn.
The 3rd clutch felt the same as the 2nd that had failed, but he didnt take it back because he knew they`d give him the same diagnosis...
Then that 3rd one died last week (@around 46k), that wasnt done under warranty & the clutch master was changed, they said it was leaking, he said there was no sign of any leaks (its parked on a stone block drive at night & theres no oil marks), he also said he`d checked the fluid & it wasnt low (but was dirty).
There you go... its now `like new again` to quote the customer, I maintain there was/is an issue with the car, maybe it was that master, & if it was, the £1100 worth of clutches he paid for should have been under warranty, but draw your own conclusions.
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Servicing is another way dealers recover the lost revenue of selling cars cheap.... dont get me started on that one...
Disagree, most owners go for cheapest option which is local garage and if they do return to dealers most discount to get the work or they previously purchased a service plan.
have you ever driven a kia pinta...its easy to tell why they are £2k cheaper!
r.e. dealers, all large production manufactures suffer from poor JD ratings etc, if suzuki/proton etc sold large quantities they would also suffer. Having a small customer base is easier to work with. (toyota possibly the exception but they have had their problems recently)
Staff are constantly rotated in large dealerships so that member of staff giving you a friendly greeting will do the same at another branch for another make, likewise salesmen and techs. They are still the same person wether working at a fiat or lexus branch.
OP
OP
I`ve worked in a variety of car dealerships (Jaguar, Land Rover, Rover, Alfa, Peugeot, Vauxhall) & have never seen service receptionist being swapped between brands. Sales staff, yes, managers yes, but not service personel & besides that, the waranty procedure is the problem & is Fiat groups biggest failing.
The dealership staff are paranoid about it, so they tend to refuse what they think they can get away with, as they cant be secure in the knowledge Fiat UK`s waranty department will honour their claims, & I`m sure Fiat UK are parranoid because Fiat spa will probably reject a large percentage of their claims that werent rejected further back down the chain!
Either way, customers like the guy who owns this 500 will eventually run out of patience & go elsewhere, then before you know it Fiats the butt of reliability jokes again & sales drop off.
If Fiats warranty department took notes from Japanese/Korean etc manufacturers there`d be more trust from the public & sales would rise & remain more constant across the range, as a result used residual prices would also go up & more consumers would be happy.
The dealership staff are paranoid about it, so they tend to refuse what they think they can get away with, as they cant be secure in the knowledge Fiat UK`s waranty department will honour their claims, & I`m sure Fiat UK are parranoid because Fiat spa will probably reject a large percentage of their claims that werent rejected further back down the chain!
Either way, customers like the guy who owns this 500 will eventually run out of patience & go elsewhere, then before you know it Fiats the butt of reliability jokes again & sales drop off.
If Fiats warranty department took notes from Japanese/Korean etc manufacturers there`d be more trust from the public & sales would rise & remain more constant across the range, as a result used residual prices would also go up & more consumers would be happy.
I'm afraid I agree with all of the above. If Fiat had brilliant after-sales and a great warranty, it would shoot up the rankings. Instead we get endless news snippets about the 500, and new models that either never arrive or come so late that competitors have beat them to it.
I see that Skoda will be launching a very cheap and economical four seater city car in two years. If this really does come in at £7,500, where will that leave the 500?
Oh yes, the Topolino....
I see that Skoda will be launching a very cheap and economical four seater city car in two years. If this really does come in at £7,500, where will that leave the 500?
Oh yes, the Topolino....
This doesn't fly for me, the dealer I use is Citroen, Fiat, Suzuki. Suzuki and Fiat share the same service desk and same staff. I've heard the conversations people have about warranty work and them not getting it anything out of fiats wallet while my car has been in. But yet at the same dealership with the same people and staff and procedures I got brake discs on warranty and pads at cost with no fitting charge on a 35 month/28k old car.
One can only assume Fiats warranty department is so tight you could insert a lump of coal into its collective backside and it would come out a diamond. Because the people there have no problem giving you pretty marginal stuff on warranty on other makes.
Well thats your experience, mines is different. I myself have been moved around various brands as have the many reception/advisors I know.
But your talking about warranty? I'm not and if you read back through many of my posts you will find I'm very critical of warranty.
D4nny8oy
Established member
Cleaning up and adding a drop of copper slip on the thrust bearing sleeve can make a huge difference to pedal weight (personally I find too much can give the feeling there's nothing there). Biting point change will probably be because he's got used to the worn clutch bite point which would've been noticeably higher.
You've lost me on the "noise" part?
"Leaking" doesn't necessarily mean 'externally'. An internal leak past the seals and back into the reservoir (like I have said) would be the likely fault they found, and explains why the fluid didn't drop.
OP
OP
For the record its going in for clutch number 5 today, as well as a possible water pump & some other minor issues.
He`s also finding its using more engine oil now.
He`s also finding its using more engine oil now.
Sounds like a dream car.
Pity the handbrake wouldn't break aswell - *thinks well-placed clifftop*
Seriously though, have Fiat UK STILL not done anything about this clutch issue? He's not still having to pay is he? Coz that really cannot be normal, no matter who's driving the blo*dy car.
OP
OP
Sounds like a dream car.
Pity the handbrake wouldn't break aswell - *thinks well-placed clifftop*
Seriously though, have Fiat UK STILL not done anything about this clutch issue? He's not still having to pay is he? Coz that really cannot be normal, no matter who's driving the blo*dy car.
I just spoke to him, apparently its being done under warranty this time, it was warranty once before (due to bad fitting of the clutch they did), the rest of the times he`s paid.
Also, its not the water pump that needs chainging, I hadnt heard the noise, but they`ve said the chirping is the clutch release bearing.
They couldnt do the clutch today, so its just had a service. He has a test tomorrow, then it`ll have to go back in for the clutch next week.
D4nny8oy
Established member
That's amazing bad luck. Fiat make 4 dodgy clutches and he happens to have had all of them.
Well at least theyre looking at the warranty claims each individual time i suppose, rather than just having a blanket 'no' each time. Even so, it sounds like it's better off just being scrapped. Im a firm believer that some cars are just 'born bad' and can't be helped no matter how many repairs they get.
Couldn't he use this situation to negotiate abit of a deal on another 500? I know that might sound mad, but it's a good situation for him to haggle something, and i can't see another 500 being this bad because the fault is barely reported by the vast numbers of other 500 owners. On the whole the 500 seems to be a well-made car.
I think there's something underlying that's causing the problem. If he got another 500 & the same thing hapened then i'd have to blame someone who's driving it. If a new 500 didn't do the same then it'd be obvious the current car is a complete duff.
D4nny8oy
Established member
Thing is BSM had a whole fleet of 500's (1.2's and 1.3's) and we dealt with a large number of them, and I can honestly say none had clutch issues. TBH, I can't remember us fitting more than a couple of 500 clutches in all the time they've been out. So either:
1. It's driver/pupil error,
2. It's a fault with the clutch mechanism from the factory (strange how nothing has been picked-up),
3. It's a fault with the dual controls causing the clutch to drag causing slipping (we had an issue on a GP where the installer had bodged the fitting and caused the brakes to seize-on after a few mins driving)
OP
OP
It may come to that but he is torn, the car is popular with students, offers good publicity & his company logo & artwork is the Fiat 500, the company name is `Numero Uno` as well, & he is of Italian descent, so, it all fits together very well, but obviously this clutch fault has put a huge fly in the ointment as far as the ownership experience is concerned...
I do too, & I believe after clutch failure number 2 or 3 within a year-ish should have triggered an investigation into the cause, the dealership dont seem to have time for it, especially when they pull in extra money from doing it outside of warranty.
He said that this is its last service before the warranty expires, so he is considering a switch soon.
As I said D4nny, he had Corsa`s previously & they were doing 3 times the mileage per clutch, are you saying the 500 causes him/the pupils to use the clutch differently? Its quite amazing that it eats clutches at the same rate as it uses brake pads...
For the record, the dealer supplied & fitted the dual control kit, so I`d like to think they have checked its releasing properly early on...
Who`s to say theres still not an underlying fault with this particular car that hasnt been picked up on. 5 clutches in 20 months should have triggered some kind of investigation into this particular car IMO, should that not be down to the dealer instead of the customer?
Isnt it?
