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Are modern cars too good?
- Thread starter StevenRB45
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Are modern cars too good?
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I seem to recall there is scientific evidence that the safer you feel while driving the more risks you take to compensate. Hence the Jeremy Clarkson spike on a stick instead of an airbag theory...fear of the possibility death does help concentration!
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The ABS, 6 airbags, and the extremely strong body make me feel safe when I'm in my car, but because I know it doesn't have any other active safety aids, I know I actually have to drive it, if that makes sense?
There is similar evidence that suggests drivers take more risks putting cyclists at risk if the cyclists are wearing high vis and a helmet.
As you point out the perception of safety lessens the care people take..... Personally I'd just rather not have an accident and I don't really think about how safe the car I'm in is or isn't, then again I've seen the results of enough accidents to know as the beard talks about above you can have a huge safe car and still end up in a bad way. However it can't be denied that car safety has hugely improved over the years.
When my wife was doing her medical school research project in her final year she did a study on car accidents, and if the introduction of seat belts had improved safety. The research project was crap and didn't prove anything but the data source she used was coroners reports dating back to the 1910s. Reading through some of the accidents which all ended in death showed truly horrific injuries from minor bumps and knocks.
OP
OP
I don't think it's a conscious choice, you drive to your comfort level. There are corners I distinctly remember taking in a punto mk1 on 155 section tyres at speeds that I would think long and hard about in my current car with infinitely better suspension and 205s. If you put me back in that car now I would drive miss Daisy because I'm not 17 anymore. You put 17/23 year old me in my current car it'd be upside down in a ditch in a week due to a lack of fear factor which would have had me pushing it until either grip or talent or both ran out as that's what I was comfortable with. I didn't stack the Fiat's simply because the limits were so low that you could get away with stupid stuff, you take that away you get a big surprise when the limits are reached and you're going fast enough that it's going to hurt no matter what safety gear you have.
Released in the last few days. Tesla model s autopilot software update
[ame]http://youtu.be/4CZe5DXeYzw[/ame]
[ame]http://youtu.be/4CZe5DXeYzw[/ame]
OP
OP
Funny how it got it's driver a speeding ticket. Impressive otherwise but seems a long way off an actual self driving vehicle (I.e. one that could take a none driving relative to the shops unaided). Although the Tesla doesn't have anywhere near the level of sensors google car does so unless it gets an upgrade in that department city driving would stay beyond it I suspect. Seems to be a clever integration of lane keep assist and active cruise with road sign recognition (or not as seems to happen a lot in the video). Watching him having to grab it from wandering at the contraflow due to poor lane markings does expose limitations some what.
Overall yes a self driving car, not one I'd happily sit and read a book in but getting there. Always a sunny day in America though where's the video in the dark in the pissing rain?
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And that's another thing I love about my Panda. If I get hit by someone or crash at national speed limit velocity I'm pretty much done for. In a "Now is my time" kind of way it's a four wheeled motorbike.
I've had the drivers aids argument many times before. The best counter that I have to admit had me for a moment came from an American automotive journalist Jonny Leiberman.
"Since the industrial revolution technology has advanced quicker than the people it has been made for. So embracing technology that makes life easier is more evolved. You either accept drivers aids are here to stay or you are a neanderthal".
I countered...
"Yes it has taken us six million years to get to where we are today. The evolution of the automobile (I translated to American for his sake) has gone from having a man walking in front of you with a red flag to John Hennessy's 270mph Venom, Larry Larson and over here in England Andy Frost have built cars capable of covering a quarter mile in less than six and a half seconds in a century. That's less than a blink of an eye of human existence and naturally some have not been able to adapt while others have. Thus necessitating the invention and application of drivers aids because they are less evolved. Drivers aids are for people who would be sat in their caves in case a Saber-tooth Tiger was outside".
Edited to add; the Sabre-tooth Tiger was a Jeremy Clarkson reference that reminded me of the argument I had with Jonny. So it's full circle from the airbag spike.
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OP
OP
Edited to add; the Sabre-tooth Tiger was a Jeremy Clarkson reference that reminded me of the argument I had with Jonny. So it's full circle from the airbag spike.
Quote snipped for no reason other than it was pretty large!
If we play with your example a little those who stayed in the cave would more closely equate to none drivers. Those who drive with driver aids would be those who left the cave, but carrying a club in case there is a Sabre tooth Tiger. Those who thought the club was heavy and chances of meeting the tiger remote and didn't bother cos they'd whup that kitty with caveman karate would be the no driver aids brigade.
I don't agree with the dilution of responsibility that seems to come with the latest wave of driving aids. Driving my car is no different to driving the uno I had 14 years ago in terms of mechanics. I've got 3 pedals, a gearshift, it'll let me crash into the car in front, I need to check my mirrors before pulling out etc etc. The only time my car differs from the uno is in a true emergency situation the uno would let me die spectacularly if I didn't have the skills, while the 3 will try and save my arse. Emergencies are rare or should be unless you are a bad driver so in day to day use there should be no need to "battle the Sabre tooth" but it's nice to have a big stick on hand just in case.
Autobraking, parking, adaptive cruise etc fit the Sabre tooth with a cow bell and a high vis vest, diminishing the perceived risk but it's still dangerous.
Also I motion that from now on a fast road drive shall be known as "battling the Sabre tooth" that is all.
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I second that motion. :slayer:
Battling the Sabre-tooth Tiger in a Fiat Panda can be done within the speed limit on a B road. To get the same kind of buzz from a Prodrive WRX, Ralliart Evo or Torqevectoring Audi would be a license loosing exercise. Even a modern warm hatch would be difficult to drive close to the limit without exceeding the speed limit.
That's why I don't use my FTO for my commute because it would be boring or I'd have more points than Chelski again.
Fewer drivers aids, more driving; more fun maybe?
Battling the Sabre-tooth Tiger in a Fiat Panda can be done within the speed limit on a B road. To get the same kind of buzz from a Prodrive WRX, Ralliart Evo or Torqevectoring Audi would be a license loosing exercise. Even a modern warm hatch would be difficult to drive close to the limit without exceeding the speed limit.
That's why I don't use my FTO for my commute because it would be boring or I'd have more points than Chelski again.
Fewer drivers aids, more driving; more fun maybe?
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As for the going out equipped analogy. I guess even Chuck Yeager had an ejector seat.
OP
OP
Exactly, physical skill, bravado and luck have their limits and this is where technology is useful.
To make road driving fun again wouldn't necessary take the removal of driver aids. More lowering of the limits to point mere mortals can reach them at speeds that don't lead to immense accidents if it all goes wrong. There's plenty of systems out there that allow movement and slides and only cut in if a crash is coming. Fit them to a car with a lower kerb weight, which would allow smaller wheels and tyres, a less powerful engine, smaller brakes. Similar to Mazda's skyactiv philosophy...(yes I'm a fan oddly enough) but taking it a step further.
After 3 days of driving this Nissan, I have some findings about the wealth of technology fitted.
There is constantly some buzzer or bell going off, I had to drive through a a very rural area earlier and it's was constantly trying to warn me that the bushes were too close of the I was over the white line etc etc for about 5 miles.
Driving in busy traffic on a duel carriage way, doesn't matter what lane you're in there is always a light telling you there is a car in your blind.... I know I'm I'm heavy slow moving traffic.
Something slows down quickly In front of me, you guessed it more bells and buzzers and lights on the dash.
The satnav is linked to the dash so the dash always displays the speed for the road you're on.... Unless it gets it wrong and given its a 2015 car there are quite a few missing round about turns and changes in speed limit. If you go over the speed limit it flashes and bleeps at you.
The binging and beeping actually occurs so frequently that at one point I thought I had tinnitus, and often by the time you've looked to see what's going on the light has gone off so you have no idea what it wanted. If it's trying to tell you the car in front has stopped or slowed suddenly the it's taking your eyes off the road when you need most to be looking. Also all the beeps are the same.
Lights flashing on and off is also a big distraction.
The auto parking is impressive and very accurate but still takes longer to set up than it normally takes to just park the car.
The overall impression from my point of view is all these things are just distracting the driver and taking attention away from the road, and reducing safety.
There is constantly some buzzer or bell going off, I had to drive through a a very rural area earlier and it's was constantly trying to warn me that the bushes were too close of the I was over the white line etc etc for about 5 miles.
Driving in busy traffic on a duel carriage way, doesn't matter what lane you're in there is always a light telling you there is a car in your blind.... I know I'm I'm heavy slow moving traffic.
Something slows down quickly In front of me, you guessed it more bells and buzzers and lights on the dash.
The satnav is linked to the dash so the dash always displays the speed for the road you're on.... Unless it gets it wrong and given its a 2015 car there are quite a few missing round about turns and changes in speed limit. If you go over the speed limit it flashes and bleeps at you.
The binging and beeping actually occurs so frequently that at one point I thought I had tinnitus, and often by the time you've looked to see what's going on the light has gone off so you have no idea what it wanted. If it's trying to tell you the car in front has stopped or slowed suddenly the it's taking your eyes off the road when you need most to be looking. Also all the beeps are the same.
Lights flashing on and off is also a big distraction.
The auto parking is impressive and very accurate but still takes longer to set up than it normally takes to just park the car.
The overall impression from my point of view is all these things are just distracting the driver and taking attention away from the road, and reducing safety.
You can switch it off though, the one I drove had parking sensors but there was a button down to right of the steering column to turn them off.
At the moment that won't be that difficult.I second that motion. :slayer:
I'd have more points than Chelski again.
At which point does technical innovation and advancement go too far? I think we are all on a car forum because we are, to one extent or another, car enthusiasts. Will there come a time when we walk out of house and climb into a TOPATRAM* and be wafted silently to our destination?
There have been some massive improvements in the cars we drive, in terms of safety, performance, economy and emissions. The first car I drove was my Mum's Vauxhall Viva HB. It came equipped with drum brakes all round, cross-ply tyres, a horn, lights (not very bright ones it has to be said) a collapsible steering column, a plastic strip across the steering wheel spokes and, er, well that's about it from a safety point of view.
Just before I passed my test the HB was replaced with an HC which, while having the same cross-plies did have servo assisted discs at the front and a wider plastic pad designed to save your ribs from being crushed by the steering wheel spokes in event of a collision. Oh, and front seat belts even though it wasn't compulsory to wear them, so almost no-one did. Except my Mum.
Gradually cars have got safer and their equipment levels have improved. The HB Viva had single speed wipers and a manual screen wash, as well as a heater fan, albeit only of two speeds; on or off, but no radio.
I'm pretty sure the HC had another speed to the heater fan, two speed wipers and an electric screenwash. It also had a heated rear window (which my Dad used to turn off once 75% of the screen was clear on the basis that batteries don't last for ever and the residual heat in the rear screen element would clear it) but still no radio. In fact the first car I drove regularly that had a radio was my first "bought" car, a 1.3 Chevette, in which I fitted an average Sharp radio-cassette and a pair of Pioneer speakers that were really too good for the radio. In fact, the only time my Dad actually listens to the car radio now is if he's sitting in Sainsbury's car park waiting for my Mum to come back. I don't think he's ever used the A/C that came as standard. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that even now he turns off the HRW before the window is really clear.
Many things about new cars are admirable and desirable, but sometimes we should be careful what we wish for when it comes to "improvements".
It's time for another "Beard" anecdote (sounds of FF members logging off all over the country)
My Dad left the RAF after nine years service in 1955. While he was serving he specialised in radar and radio, plus other assorted electronics, of which there wasn't a whole lot on Sunderland flying boats and ASR launches. Back in Civvy-Street he went to work for a company called Power-Samas which later became International Computers and Tabulators (ICT) which ended up as International Computers Limited (ICL), now defunct.
He was a DP (Data Processing) Engineer and looked after teleprinters, monitors, punch card machines and mag tape machines as well as the (then) cutting edge tech Disc Drives. As we all know, none of this equipment is used any more. We once had a discussion about an album track by a band called Emerson Lake and Palmer (ELP) who were at the front of the Prog-Rock movement. There was a track on the LP called "Karn-Evil 9" elements of which surfaced in several sci-fi films of later years, including Star Wars. The basic premise was that as computers had (been) developed they began to learn and then decided that they knew best and that the only function humans had was to mine the raw components that allowed computers to work.
He adamantly disputed that this could ever happen and that computers could only do what we designed them to do and could only process data that we gave them to process. I'm no cyber expert as anyone who's had to give advice on how to solve very simple problems can attest, but even I've become aware that there are computers that can learn and indeed are used in designing yet more modern computers.
So how far are we away from Karn-Evil 9?
How far are we away from all owning a TOPATRAM that will decide where we go, when we go there and will take us all the way, even parking itself in a place where it can be re-filled with Tofu, just ready to be re-called via your very, very smart phone? Or will it text you and tell you it's time to go home and: "Haven't you had enough already? You know what you're like when you've had too much to drink."
In fact why do you want to go out at all? All your shopping will be done on-line, probably ordered on your behalf by your TOPATRAM; socialising is so 21st Century and if you get too close to other humans you'll probably get a cold and need to take time off work due to illness, even though your work from home.
I could go on (no, for God's sake don't) but in all fairness, if anybody has bothered to get to the end of this they're probably thinking: "Gas oven or sleeping pills?"
Personally I've always believed that machines should be operated, largely, by humans and we should make all the decisions, but if technology carries on advancing the way it is that may not be the case for long.
* TOfu Powered Automatic TRAnsportation Module.
There have been some massive improvements in the cars we drive, in terms of safety, performance, economy and emissions. The first car I drove was my Mum's Vauxhall Viva HB. It came equipped with drum brakes all round, cross-ply tyres, a horn, lights (not very bright ones it has to be said) a collapsible steering column, a plastic strip across the steering wheel spokes and, er, well that's about it from a safety point of view.
Just before I passed my test the HB was replaced with an HC which, while having the same cross-plies did have servo assisted discs at the front and a wider plastic pad designed to save your ribs from being crushed by the steering wheel spokes in event of a collision. Oh, and front seat belts even though it wasn't compulsory to wear them, so almost no-one did. Except my Mum.
Gradually cars have got safer and their equipment levels have improved. The HB Viva had single speed wipers and a manual screen wash, as well as a heater fan, albeit only of two speeds; on or off, but no radio.
I'm pretty sure the HC had another speed to the heater fan, two speed wipers and an electric screenwash. It also had a heated rear window (which my Dad used to turn off once 75% of the screen was clear on the basis that batteries don't last for ever and the residual heat in the rear screen element would clear it) but still no radio. In fact the first car I drove regularly that had a radio was my first "bought" car, a 1.3 Chevette, in which I fitted an average Sharp radio-cassette and a pair of Pioneer speakers that were really too good for the radio. In fact, the only time my Dad actually listens to the car radio now is if he's sitting in Sainsbury's car park waiting for my Mum to come back. I don't think he's ever used the A/C that came as standard. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that even now he turns off the HRW before the window is really clear.
Many things about new cars are admirable and desirable, but sometimes we should be careful what we wish for when it comes to "improvements".
It's time for another "Beard" anecdote (sounds of FF members logging off all over the country)
My Dad left the RAF after nine years service in 1955. While he was serving he specialised in radar and radio, plus other assorted electronics, of which there wasn't a whole lot on Sunderland flying boats and ASR launches. Back in Civvy-Street he went to work for a company called Power-Samas which later became International Computers and Tabulators (ICT) which ended up as International Computers Limited (ICL), now defunct.
He was a DP (Data Processing) Engineer and looked after teleprinters, monitors, punch card machines and mag tape machines as well as the (then) cutting edge tech Disc Drives. As we all know, none of this equipment is used any more. We once had a discussion about an album track by a band called Emerson Lake and Palmer (ELP) who were at the front of the Prog-Rock movement. There was a track on the LP called "Karn-Evil 9" elements of which surfaced in several sci-fi films of later years, including Star Wars. The basic premise was that as computers had (been) developed they began to learn and then decided that they knew best and that the only function humans had was to mine the raw components that allowed computers to work.
He adamantly disputed that this could ever happen and that computers could only do what we designed them to do and could only process data that we gave them to process. I'm no cyber expert as anyone who's had to give advice on how to solve very simple problems can attest, but even I've become aware that there are computers that can learn and indeed are used in designing yet more modern computers.
So how far are we away from Karn-Evil 9?
How far are we away from all owning a TOPATRAM that will decide where we go, when we go there and will take us all the way, even parking itself in a place where it can be re-filled with Tofu, just ready to be re-called via your very, very smart phone? Or will it text you and tell you it's time to go home and: "Haven't you had enough already? You know what you're like when you've had too much to drink."
In fact why do you want to go out at all? All your shopping will be done on-line, probably ordered on your behalf by your TOPATRAM; socialising is so 21st Century and if you get too close to other humans you'll probably get a cold and need to take time off work due to illness, even though your work from home.
I could go on (no, for God's sake don't) but in all fairness, if anybody has bothered to get to the end of this they're probably thinking: "Gas oven or sleeping pills?"
Personally I've always believed that machines should be operated, largely, by humans and we should make all the decisions, but if technology carries on advancing the way it is that may not be the case for long.
* TOfu Powered Automatic TRAnsportation Module.
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OP
OP
Hear hear Mr Beard
While I agree with technology that does something you cannot I do not agree with getting rid of what should be expected of a competent driver.
My feeling is technology like ESP and airbags was there to help in the case of the freak or the unavoidable, self park and whatever else they go for...that's going for what should be entirely avoidable.
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