Technical Abs esc lights

[dmannhgm]

Hi.

Ongoing issue with my daughter's 2013 twin air panda trekking. Diagnostic suggested near side abs sensor, so changed but lights stayed on.

Another diagnostic said drivers side abs sensor. So this week I changed it and took it to get the code cleared as it didn't go from the 1st drive after repair. By the way this sensor snapped off so I had to drill the old one out.

Guys couldn't clear the code... So lights on. They suggested it could be the bearing. Got in the car and lights had gone off! Turned off, started again and lights still off. Went to drive away and they came on again!!!


So both sensors changed, tyre pressures the same and brake fluid at the max... Any suggestions gratefully received

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

We tend to use MultiECUScan software to read body control errors

Brake Fluid level should have Zero effect... ( same with tyres..within reason)

you will have a specific wheel speed error ( lost, low or intermittent signal ) registering in the Body Module

Getting the exact code may help the diagnosis... most faults ..and codes.. have been mentioned on here before


Usual questions:

Had the car long?

Any work done before warning came on?


Where are you based ..? somebody near you may well have the MES software


Charlie - near the M4

 

[dmannhgm]

Many thanks for the reply.

Fluid levels and tyre pressure was mentioned on a website...

Had the car a couple of years. Bought with damage to the passenger side front wheel. Change wish bone and bearing. Took for mot with lights on. Paid them to clear it and it worked, until we drove away.

Been an ongoing issue with the above diagnosis.
The guys today at the MOT put it on their diagnostic and as they couldn't clear it said it was still an issue and a fail. I asked about the codes and they said they didn't go into the system. As I'd been charged I asked them to actually diagnose the problem. They went to do it again and the lights had gone off so they didn't bother. Gave me a pass certificate and as I drove off the lights came on again.


What damage could I have done drilling the old sensor out. I used a smaller bit and took the centre out and then flicked out the rest... Could a sensor on the bearing need changing. I'm near Bedford area.

 

[dmannhgm]

Sorry to clarify.... Is there a ring on the bearing that the sensor works from?

 

[bugsymike]

Many thanks for the reply.

Fluid levels and tyre pressure was mentioned on a website...

Had the car a couple of years. Bought with damage to the passenger side front wheel. Change wish bone and bearing. Took for mot with lights on. Paid them to clear it and it worked, until we drove away.

Been an ongoing issue with the above diagnosis.
The guys today at the MOT put it on their diagnostic and as they couldn't clear it said it was still an issue and a fail. I asked about the codes and they said they didn't go into the system. As I'd been charged I asked them to actually diagnose the problem. They went to do it again and the lights had gone off so they didn't bother. Gave me a pass certificate and as I drove off the lights came on again.


What damage could I have done drilling the old sensor out. I used a smaller bit and took the centre out and then flicked out the rest... Could a sensor on the bearing need changing. I'm near Bedford area.

No guarantee, but if the code only comes back once the wheels are turning I think that means a "passive" ABS sensor in other words "active" ones can be tested with a volt meter (roughly battery voltage) and if there is a failure as soon as you turn the ignition on after deleting the code it will return without moving the vehicle.
You may be able to test the readings from comparing the working one on the other side of the vehicle using an Ohm meter setting on a basic multimeter.
However if you have access to a good diagnostic tool or program "Fiat Multiscan" etc. you can compare all for wheel ABS sensors as the car is moving to see if one is faulty.
By the way regarding damage to the rotor, where there is a physical rotor you can see with teeth on it, rust or debris between the teeth or other damage should be visible.
The other type of rotor is magnetic and is usually part of the end of the wheel bearing sitting very close to the end of the ABS sensor, so if your drill touched it that could damage the rotor or even if you poke it with a magnetised screwdriver (not unknown, you often see a normal screwdriver that has picked up a piece of metal debris) into contact with the bearing then it can cause failure.
I have a small tester that looks like a credit card that if you hold it against the end of the bearing it will show a series of teeth/rotor in iron filings trapped inside the test card, it came from SKF the bearing people.

 

[dmannhgm]

Thankyou.

If this somehow helps, the car was moved with the lights staying off, only seconds and meters but from off the ramp to a stop, the lights were off. Moved again out of the workshop, still off.
I started it up to leave and with in seconds they came on again

 

[bugsymike]

Thankyou.

If this somehow helps, the car was moved with the lights staying off, only seconds and meters but from off the ramp to a stop, the lights were off. Moved again out of the workshop, still off.
I started it up to leave and with in seconds they came on again

Ideally use a diagnostic tool as described by varsecrazy above to tell you which wheel ABS sensor is faulty, to save you chasing all over the car then you can look deeper, even a weak connecting plug is worth looking at, but first prove which area to look at.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

As you may have read in other threads here, error codes are often quite random if the car battery is not in the best of health. (Because less than perfect voltage leads to less than reliable outputs from the various sensors.) Worth checking…. If battery more than four or five years old, very likely not helping.

 

[WitleyPanda]

Hi.

Ongoing issue with my daughter's 2013 twin air panda trekking. Diagnostic suggested near side abs sensor, so changed but lights stayed on.

Another diagnostic said drivers side abs sensor. So this week I changed it and took it to get the code cleared as it didn't go from the 1st drive after repair. By the way this sensor snapped off so I had to drill the old one out.

Guys couldn't clear the code... So lights on. They suggested it could be the bearing. Got in the car and lights had gone off! Turned off, started again and lights still off. Went to drive away and they came on again!!!


So both sensors changed, tyre pressures the same and brake fluid at the max... Any suggestions gratefully received

And how old is the battery? I have just chased around the ESC, hill hold and other systems that use the ABS and other sensors. Root cause seems to be low volts despite reading 12.6v on battery posts.

 

[dmannhgm]

Many thanks for the posts suggesting looking at the battery... To be honest I don't know how old it is but as it's got fiat stickers on it, maybe it's the original one... Any thoughts on boosting the power to it off of another vehicle with jump leads and seeing if the lights go off.... Is that a fair test?

 

[bugsymike]

Many thanks for the posts suggesting looking at the battery... To be honest I don't know how old it is but as it's got fiat stickers on it, maybe it's the original one... Any thoughts on boosting the power to it off of another vehicle with jump leads and seeing if the lights go off.... Is that a fair test?

My 10 pence worth , if your battery is a problem or the problem, when you connect a good battery to a bad one it can pull the good one down, I have seen a engine turning over sluggish with two batteries and then the one original suspect battery disconnected and just using the donor battery the engine turning much faster. I know this isn't always the case when "jump" starting a car, but it is not unknown.
So what I am saying is if you have good spare battery it may be better to just try that in the vehicle on it's own.
These days there are several cheap battery testers that give a percentage reading of what the battery is currently doing in comparison with it's output when it was new. Sorry about the poor picture, this is a 1000amp battery that has been standing for a month since last charge and is reading 98% and 12.59 volts.

 

[dmannhgm]

Thanks for that. Will look into it tomorrow and give an update.
Appreciate everyone's replies

 

[A3jeroen]

Are ALL tires the same size?

gr J

 

[WitleyPanda]

Many thanks for the posts suggesting looking at the battery... To be honest I don't know how old it is but as it's got fiat stickers on it, maybe it's the original one... Any thoughts on boosting the power to it off of another vehicle with jump leads and seeing if the lights go off.... Is that a fair test?

The problem with boosting is how you actually connect to access the stored capacity. The voltage at the original battery terminals may fall, because unless you use very short and heavy duty jump cables, the impedance/resistance such that current to compensate will not flow, so the voltage will fall regardless. In theory you could leave your original battery connected to the systems and connect the boost battery in the starter circuit i.e. isolate the bulk power from the signal/computer/systems as is done on some odd vehicles with split charge/discharge, like military radio/ command post vehicles.

 

[bugsymike]

Good quality jump leads are a necessity, I have seen the smoke pouring off cheap aluminum crimped leads some people keep in their car, they don't need to be short, just good quality, I have owned arc welding leads fifty feet long capable of of continuous 600amp duty with no noticeable drop in power, mind you I wouldn't have wanted to carry the pair very far .
I have recovered vehicles with the original duff battery disconnected and a good Starter/jump pack sat on the passenger floor with a set of jump leads through the window and the bonnet on the first catch to start and run the vehicle back to the workshop.
The issue with multiple error codes and old batteries seems quite common, it would be interesting to clear the codes with a freshly charged battery and a voltmeter connected to the system to see at what voltage drop, on a cold engine when cranking causes the error codes to appear.
I seem to recall in the old days pre ECU they used to run ballast resister coils rated at about 8-9 volts on a 12 volt system with an extra terminal so when the ignition was turned back from the start position the 12 volt supply was corrected to around 8 volts by the ballast resister. Vauxhall and Ford used them.

 

[dmannhgm]

Thanks everyone. Going to try a new battery today as I recharged mine and a few days later it's just under 12v.

While running it jumps to 14v, so could it still be the battery?

Just removed the sensor I fitted and it's fine but can see that the abs ring inside is a rusty colour... Is this the issue and can I get to it to gently clean it?

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks everyone. Going to try a new battery today as I recharged mine and a few days later it's just under 12v.

While running it jumps to 14v, so could it still be the battery?

Just removed the sensor I fitted and it's fine but can see that the abs ring inside is a rusty colour... Is this the issue and can I get to it to gently clean it?

Surface rust alone will not stop it working, more anything that blocks or damages the individual teeth, that will give a bad reading to the the ABS module on the pump.
Double check yourself with exact details , but I think most Pandas that age have a wheel bearing with an integrated ABS magnetic ring, in which case as you mentioned previously drilling out the old ABS sensor and cleaning the hole out it may have damaged the ring in which case a new wheel bearing would be required as part of the bearing.
As first photo this is a common ABS rotor ring.
However as I mentioned where the ABS ring is incorporated in the bearing you can only test with diagnostic tools or one of these cards as I mentioned before. Either way I suggest you get it diagnosed correctly as to what is at fault before you start buying something you may not need.

 

[dmannhgm]

Many thanks... From what I can see, the inside is pretty smooth, no sign of teeth? Checked the other side that I replaced and that's the same

 

[bugsymike]

Many thanks... From what I can see, the inside is pretty smooth, no sign of teeth? Checked the other side that I replaced and that's the same

So if everything else checks out OK then you may end up having to fit a new wheel bearing and keep anything magnetic away from it .
However I would say please check that everything else is pointing to this first.

 

[dmannhgm]

So solved at last...on comparing what I could see with both abs sensors out i could see that they looked different inside. There was extra metal on the side of one of the recesses where the sensor goes...this turned out to be the cir-clip that holds the bearing and it needed moving round so that the gap in the cir clip lined up with the sensor. I know this is probably very basic stuff, and could only be the cause of anyone else's issue it if followed a bearing replacement.

Many thanks for all that took the time to offer suggestions and help