An exhaust sucking on in extra air will have low HC and co levels as the clean air will dilute them to such low levels
Technical 2013 Panda 1.2 rough idle and failing emissions test.
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Technical 2013 Panda 1.2 rough idle and failing emissions test.
An exhaust sucking on in extra air will have low HC and co levels as the clean air will dilute them to such low levels
Hi.
Did the OP tell us how the car drives? I may have missed the answer.
If its hesitant or has poor torque or wont rev to the red line, then there is more than likely an under-bonnet issue rather than an issue under the car!!
What are the plug tips like? Do they all look the same?
Did the OP tell us how the car drives? I may have missed the answer.
If its hesitant or has poor torque or wont rev to the red line, then there is more than likely an under-bonnet issue rather than an issue under the car!!
What are the plug tips like? Do they all look the same?
plasmahal2020
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I still think that there is an under the bonnet issue as the car still rough idles when warmed up. Drives OK but it's not my daily car. When revved you can hear some hesitance (or as some one put it 'puttering') and when warm, listening to the exhaust you can hear every now and then what sounds like a mis-fire.
No errors to look at now so it's going to garage today to see what they can find.
Thanks for the help so far.
Lets hope they find something conclusive 
I haven't posted here recently because I can't think of anything to add to what people are already saying. I'm fascinated to know the outcome. Ever since we bought Becky (2010 1.2 Panda) she's had a slight reluctance to accelerate strongly once she's in closed loop. On open loop (ie when cold) she behaves perfectly but once she's hot she has this slight feeling of "hanging back" when on large throttle openings - no DTCs posted - She's fine on smaller throttle openings. Doesn't matter if she's at high or low revs, so I don't particularly suspect fuel pressure? the problem seems to be directly related to loading. I'm suspecting the MAP but haven't removed it or tried disconnecting it (which I must try) Lambda reading (using MES) on the upsteam gives exactly the result you would expect but I'm puzzled by the downstream which is nearly straight lined (as you would expect) but right up at around 0.8/0.9 volts. She had a "big" service with air filter, plugs, new oil (5w-40) etc just before that but it made absolutely no difference to how she ran.
I've been very busy lately with broken fencing and "stuff" related to the extension being built at my younger boy's house - and my Sciatic's been playing up as well - but I really must get stuck into Becky's problems while the weather is good - she needs rear cylinders (and probably pipes) too!
Never a dull moment is there? Mrs J managed to spill milk behind the driver's seat yesterday (2 litre plastic container with a faulty seal/cap) I've lost count of the number of times I've asked her not to lay milk bottles on their side! Gave it a good scrubbing out with "Elbow Grease" so hoping for the best! Have you "discovered "Elbow Grease" yet?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elbow-Greese-500ml-Purpose-Greaser/dp/B003JSRS9G
It's really amazing stuff. My daughter suggested it to us and we bought a spray bottle just to try. It's so good we bought another half dozen bottles almost immediately and gave one to each of our boys. I've used it to get oil stains off the kitchen laminate and vinyl flooring in toilet/bathroom also cleans basins and baths and probably just about anything.
Just went and had a "sniff" inside Becky - so far no bad milk pong, but that's only just 24 hours since she spilt it and it's not hot weather just now.
PS. Perhaps I should say that Elbow Grease stuff seems to be mostly sold in "bargain" stores. We buy it from B&M.
I've been very busy lately with broken fencing and "stuff" related to the extension being built at my younger boy's house - and my Sciatic's been playing up as well - but I really must get stuck into Becky's problems while the weather is good - she needs rear cylinders (and probably pipes) too!
Never a dull moment is there? Mrs J managed to spill milk behind the driver's seat yesterday (2 litre plastic container with a faulty seal/cap) I've lost count of the number of times I've asked her not to lay milk bottles on their side! Gave it a good scrubbing out with "Elbow Grease" so hoping for the best! Have you "discovered "Elbow Grease" yet?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elbow-Greese-500ml-Purpose-Greaser/dp/B003JSRS9G
It's really amazing stuff. My daughter suggested it to us and we bought a spray bottle just to try. It's so good we bought another half dozen bottles almost immediately and gave one to each of our boys. I've used it to get oil stains off the kitchen laminate and vinyl flooring in toilet/bathroom also cleans basins and baths and probably just about anything.
Just went and had a "sniff" inside Becky - so far no bad milk pong, but that's only just 24 hours since she spilt it and it's not hot weather just now.
PS. Perhaps I should say that Elbow Grease stuff seems to be mostly sold in "bargain" stores. We buy it from B&M.
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As mentioned above, if the car is OK on cold start (Open Loop for the ECU) but bad when in Closed Loop when warm, then it might well be the symptom of Low Fuel Pressure. We've had the discussion about Fuel Filters and these do seem to be the in-tank type surprisingly, but if there were an external one I would change it regardless. The other cause could be dirty injectors, which would have the same effect when in Closed Loop as they are required to meter out fuel precisely, as opposed to blast it out in Cold/Open Loop situations at start-up. Injector clean and test is very easy and quite cheap from a specialist (I used http://www.injectortune.co.uk last time and they were excellent - £12.50/injector with quick postal turnaround) - best £50 I've spent on a car to be honest. Well worth a go.
Yup, in tank, no service interval specified. With 65,000 miles on the clock dirty injectors are a distinct possibility I suppose? a can of injector cleaner might be worth trying.
I wonder if the diesel specialist who overhauled my old Cordoba's injectors might be capable of giving then an ultra clean? Wouldn't harm to ask?
Both Pandas I've had have this difference between open and closed loop. Open loop the mixture is rich for the cold engine and cold lambda sensors. I've said since I bought my first Panda that they are too lean. I investigated about a remap and I was told that a remap won't necessarily improve torque and BHP by very much but it will take away this annoying hesitation and thus will make a marked difference to driveability. I've not done it due to funds.
Iridium plugs help as does the oil catch tank as the oil deposit goes from the MAP, although there is an improvement it isn't a full cure.
I don't think that there is a fault it's just to get the emissions down. Mind you this doesn't help the OP.
Iridium plugs help as does the oil catch tank as the oil deposit goes from the MAP, although there is an improvement it isn't a full cure.
I don't think that there is a fault it's just to get the emissions down. Mind you this doesn't help the OP.
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Im not really sold on low pressure.. at least not due to a poor supply.
If you take the car out.. and can run it at high rpm..under load without issue I cannot see a Mechanical supply fault
But a bad pressure sensor.. or interpretation by ECU could have an effect
Does the 1242 show fuel pressures via OBD ?
I STILL thinks its possible to run the pump in reverse .. out of car..
To backflush the filter..
Anybody tried the above ?
I’ve realised I missed a bit here... tbe one that was ‘wobbly’ tended to lead to a misfire once warm, because the electrical connection within the injector would fail.
Putt putting in the exhaust can be the sign of a burned seat on an exhaust valve and that will give a high O2 reading.
If the car was mine I'd do the following.
Inspect plugs after a run for colour and deposits.
Check the resistance of the plug leads and condition.
Check the resistance of each HT connection on the coil pack to the primary circuit for any difference between each cylinder feed.
Check the MAP for oil contamination and clean.
Clean oil from throttle body and clean thoroughly with carb or brake cleaner spray.
Use a good injector cleaner.
Do a compression test.
Read live data and go from there.
Obviously don't do it all in one go, try to eliminate each item.
Inspect plugs after a run for colour and deposits.
Check the resistance of the plug leads and condition.
Check the resistance of each HT connection on the coil pack to the primary circuit for any difference between each cylinder feed.
Check the MAP for oil contamination and clean.
Clean oil from throttle body and clean thoroughly with carb or brake cleaner spray.
Use a good injector cleaner.
Do a compression test.
Read live data and go from there.
Obviously don't do it all in one go, try to eliminate each item.
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Hello Trevor, could that explain the high post cat reading - I think high volts indicates lots of unburnt oxygen around (0.9 approx in this case)?
regards
jock
I believe an oil catch tank is now an MOT fail if it is open vented. OK if sealed with a breather back into the manifold. (This was something contained in the MOT document I attached a few posts back up this thread)
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plasmahal2020
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Just heard back from the garage.
Their diagnostic equipment is pointing to a coil pack issue.
While i fitted a new magnetti maerelli unit, it did not solve the issue or get it through the second emissions test, so i refitted the old one.
I have given them the new coil pack and they will fit again tomorrow and re-run diagnostics.
I did suggest they may want to look at plugs and leads even though they were replaced last year but i realise they may still have developed a fault since then. I don't have any equipment to test these parts.
Their diagnostic equipment is pointing to a coil pack issue.
While i fitted a new magnetti maerelli unit, it did not solve the issue or get it through the second emissions test, so i refitted the old one.
I have given them the new coil pack and they will fit again tomorrow and re-run diagnostics.
I did suggest they may want to look at plugs and leads even though they were replaced last year but i realise they may still have developed a fault since then. I don't have any equipment to test these parts.
I'd just be inclined to seal the breather for the MOT, a two minute job.
Hi Jock o2 sensor not wideband type
0.9v very little to no oxygen
0.1v lots of oxygen
The cat helps oxygen to combine with other gases in exhaust so you would expect to see low oxygen after the cat.
Thanks Jack. As you can see I've only partially got my head round all this. However with the help of yourself and others I'm slowly hauling myself up by my boot straps! I'm happier with what to expect from the pre cat sensor and I knew that the post cat sensor should give a pretty flat line output if the cat is doing it's job. But, without applying any intelligent thought to it, I was expecting to see it nearer the 0.5 volt line - which is exactly what my boy's 1.6 Astra produces - so I was a little surprised to see this result.
So the high (relatively) voltage seen at the post cat O2 sensor is actually desirable and a sign that the cat itself is probably pretty healthy and being fed with "manageable" gases from the engine?
So the high (relatively) voltage seen at the post cat O2 sensor is actually desirable and a sign that the cat itself is probably pretty healthy and being fed with "manageable" gases from the engine?
plasmahal2020
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Just had a call back from the garage.
They also put the new coil pack back on, no change, did some more diagnostics and found one of the injectors not working.
It's bee replaced and MOT passed.
more updates later.
They also put the new coil pack back on, no change, did some more diagnostics and found one of the injectors not working.
It's bee replaced and MOT passed.
more updates later.
