Technical 2013 Panda 1.2 rough idle and failing emissions test.

[plasmahal2020]

Hi all,

My 2013 panda with the 1.2 8v FIRE engine has a fault i cannot track down.

Wanted to ask here before going to my local garage.

It had an intermittent issue last year when it was hot and the the engine light would flicker on/off and then the engine went into limp home mode.

Did a service on it including plugs but no change.

Bought a plug-in OBDCII module and it reported mist-fire on cylinder 2.

Replaced the HT leads and added some fuel additive and all sorted.

Roll on a year and we planned to replace panda with a Fiat 500.

It had to have at least a month of the original MOT left on it for trade in.

Took it for the MOT and it failed on the emissions test for their lambda readings too high.

The car is running rough, lumpy idle but not dash light for engine issue.

An error code showed that the camshaft actuator for the VVT (P0010) and it has been removed, cleaned (although did not look dirty) and tested that the solenoid worked which it does.

Tried and new coil pack, no change.

I have not serviced it yet as we are trading it in. The air filter looks like new and the oil is not black (medium brown) and I topped up as well with fresh oil.

II could try an oil change with a clean/flush and add some fuel cleaner to tank.

Though I'd post here before going to the garage and paying to look at it.

Thanks.

 

[portland_bill]

Check the coolant. Ensure it is properly filled. If it has the tank on the radiator, these can appear ok, but there may be air in the system. Get it warm and bleed it, two screws, one at a heater pipe near the bulkhead and the other on the rad.

Check appearance of the coolant. Is it clean and clear, or possibly contaminated.

Could be a head gasket failing.

Pull the plugs out, are they all looking the same colour. Are any of the threads tight or a different colour. A failing head gasket will often make the plug threads brown.

 

[plasmahal2020]

Check the coolant. Ensure it is properly filled. If it has the tank on the radiator, these can appear ok, but there may be air in the system. Get it warm and bleed it, two screws, one at a heater pipe near the bulkhead and the other on the rad.

Check appearance of the coolant. Is it clean and clear, or possibly contaminated.

Could be a head gasket failing.

Pull the plugs out, are they all looking the same colour. Are any of the threads tight or a different colour. A failing head gasket will often make the plug threads brown.

Thanks, i will check coolant and report back.

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi all,

My 2013 panda with the 1.2 8v FIRE engine has a fault i cannot track down.

Wanted to ask here before going to my local garage.

It had an intermittent issue last year when it was hot and the the engine light would flicker on/off and then the engine went into limp home mode.

Did a service on it including plugs but no change.

Bought a plug-in OBDCII module and it reported mist-fire on cylinder 2.

Replaced the HT leads and added some fuel additive and all sorted.

Roll on a year and we planned to replace panda with a Fiat 500.

It had to have at least a month of the original MOT left on it for trade in.

Took it for the MOT and it failed on the emissions test for their lambda readings too high.

The car is running rough, lumpy idle but not dash light for engine issue.

An error code showed that the camshaft actuator for the VVT (P0010) and it has been removed, cleaned (although did not look dirty) and tested that the solenoid worked which it does.

Tried and new coil pack, no change.

I have not serviced it yet as we are trading it in. The air filter looks like new and the oil is not black (medium brown) and I topped up as well with fresh oil.

II could try an oil change with a clean/flush and add some fuel cleaner to tank.

Though I'd post here before going to the garage and paying to look at it.

Thanks.

If it was just the lambda too high
Are there any leaks in exhaust ?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

My previous (2005) 1.2 4x4 did something similar... turned out to be a crack in the plastic where one of the wiring plugs connected to the fuel injectors on the fuel rail. If you try 'wiggling' each connector there should be very little movement. In my case, three had little and one wobbled a lot. Was worse when hot. I bought a complete rail with the four injectors on it from an on line breaker (for very little money!) - and swapped the individual injector from that 'new' one to the original rail. Worked a treat! Exchanged the car a few months later... for a 2013 MJ 4x4

 

[plasmahal2020]

Coolant is filled and no air in system.

I have to note also that the issue is not there on a cold start and starts when the engine starts to get warm and the revs drop to normal idle, which at the moment is around 770 rpm.

 

[plasmahal2020]

If it was just the lambda too high
Are there any leaks in exhaust ?

There appears to be no leaks from the front to back of car.

I have not checked for leaks around the manifold and CAT and not sure how to.

 

[plasmahal2020]

My previous (2005) 1.2 4x4 did something similar... turned out to be a crack in the plastic where one of the wiring plugs connected to the fuel injectors on the fuel rail. If you try 'wiggling' each connector there should be very little movement. In my case, three had little and one wobbled a lot. Was worse when hot. I bought a complete rail with the four injectors on it from an on line breaker (for very little money!) - and swapped the individual injector from that 'new' one to the original rail. Worked a treat! Exchanged the car a few months later... for a 2013 MJ 4x4

Didn't think to check that when i had the airbox off this morning.

i'll take a look.

 

[portland_bill]

Coolant is filled and no air in system.

I have to note also that the issue is not there on a cold start and starts when the engine starts to get warm and the revs drop to normal idle, which at the moment is around 770 rpm.

That might go with the leaky injector theory.
Cold start requires richer mixture and increased tickover, which might hide an overfuelling injector. As the excess fuel is reduced, the leaky injector shows up as it does not reduce like the others.

 

[plasmahal2020]

That might go with the leaky injector theory.
Cold start requires richer mixture and increased tickover, which might hide an overfuelling injector. As the excess fuel is reduced, the leaky injector shows up as it does not reduce like the others.

Would it be reasonable to think that a fault like would show up on a fault scanner tool/app?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Just spotted this in the original post:
"An error code showed that the camshaft actuator for the VVT (P0010)"
Does the 1.2 Fire engine have variable valve timing? I didn't think it did...

 

[jackwhoo]

P0010 is a generic OBD-II code indicating an issue with the engine control module (ECM) detecting a variation in the mechanical timing between the crankshaft and camshaft.

So it is not saying the solenoid is faulty.

 

[plasmahal2020]

Just spotted this in the original post:
"An error code showed that the camshaft actuator for the VVT (P0010)"
Does the 1.2 Fire engine have variable valve timing? I didn't think it did...

From a certain year onward, yes.

 

[plasmahal2020]

P0010 is a generic OBD-II code indicating an issue with the engine control module (ECM) detecting a variation in the mechanical timing between the crankshaft and camshaft.

So it is not saying the solenoid is faulty.

The reader quoted:

P0010 A Camshaft Position Actuator Circuit (Bank1)

Which also matches the codes on this forum.

This lead me to at least testing it but the code has not re-occurred since being cleared.

 

[portland_bill]

Would it be reasonable to think that a fault like would show up on a fault scanner tool/app?

NO.

As the fault is caused by a component fault, not by an erroneous sensor, no specific fault will be reported. It is reporting this, as it is measuring the effect, with the excessive CO level.

To find a leaking injector would normally require it to be removed, placed under pressure and viewed to see if it seals. This requires care, as fuel under pressure will be finely atomised and easy to get into eyes or skin if close. Ideally teh injector should be in a container of some sort, to show the leak, but contain the fluid. Small glass jars might be ideal, if they can be held in place. Plastic will work if clear, and fuel resistant. A lot of plastic will melt when contacted by petrol.

 

[jackwhoo]

The reader quoted:

P0010 A Camshaft Position Actuator Circuit (Bank1)

Which also matches the codes on this forum.

This lead me to at least testing it but the code has not re-occurred since being cleared.

In my view it is saying that there may be a problem with the actuator because the timing between the crankshaft and camshaft is not as expected , this could be caused problems other than the actuator itself.

Fantastic that the code has not come back.

Do you have a code reader that reads live data with the engine running ?

Was the emmision fail just on lambda calculation?

Please post photo of emmision test print

 

[plasmahal2020]

Do you have a code reader that reads live data with the engine running ?

Yes.

Was the emmision fail just on lambda calculation?

Yes

I have to make 5 posts before i can post a photo.

 

[plasmahal2020]

 

[jackwhoo]

Well there's the problem

I have never seen a lambda value that high on an mot test.
It is so high it looks like normal air is being drawn into the exhaust somewhere.

Does car have an aftermarket exhaust? Something with twin tail pipes?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well there's the problem

I have never seen a lambda reading that high.
It is so high it looks like normal air is being pumped into the exhaust somewhere.

Does car have an aftermarket exhaust? Something with twin tail pipes?

Looks like it doesn't it Jack? As you'll know I'm sure, so for the benefit of others, a high (greater than 1.00) Lambda reading means there is excess free oxygen going past the upstream sensor so it outputs a voltage high, 1.4 volts is pretty impressive though, The ECU interprets this and drives the mixture rich to try to compensate. Pulling air round a gasket maybe? Can you hear any "puttering" sounds?

I'm still a bit unsure where diagnostics are concerned but I wonder if a MAP sensor could cause this? Either the sensor itself or an air leak affecting the vacuum the sensor is trying to monitor? However I'm less sure about the possibility of this. I'm very interested in MAP sensors just now and it's given me an excuse to buy a wee cheap (ebay) vacuum pump - something I've been trying to justify for years - so I can test them off the vehicle. Lots of other "stuff" you can do with a vacuum pump too. Ok Jock, you've just convinced yourself!