600 (Classic) 1960 600 EV conversion

[summersc]

I made progress on a couple of things the past week or so. I have a rough goal of getting the car in primer before July. Fingers crossed. In order for that to happen i have some work to do and things to decide on:
1. Even more cutting and welding! Fix up the dashboard, finish the floor pan, get the trans mount in, grind and tack and grind and tack.
2. Begin thinking about the electronics layout... where to put the high voltage stuff and charger and things like that. I also need to figure out a way to seal up some of the front end to keep dust out of my A/C unit and electronics.
3. Get the VW transmission into its final location. This is important for the final motor hanger design, so I can get that fabbed up.

The rear side windows were some work. I wont belabor it.... here is an example before and after pic:

and now:

both sides needed rebuilding. I really hope these windows seal ok! Having a spot welder saves sooo much time.

For the electronics layout, its good to keep the high voltage and the low voltage separate so they dont interact.

The bottom of my backseat is pretty nasty. From my perspective, its not rusty springs and rotted cushions, rather, its an opportunity to stash more stuff!

So, i spent some time "rebuilding" the bottom of the seat. I would have needed to modify to fit around the roll bar anyway, so why not make more room for electronics? The lid will be plywood with some 2in high density foam. Not the most comfortable, but fine for short trips.

And the lid will be hinged or easily removed for servicing.

Next up... transmission and motor mounting details.

 

[summersc]

I made some progress on the car the past couple of weeks, mostly in the way of mounting electronics and sorting out the drivetrain. The VW transmission is a very tight fit between the rear swing arm mounts. It required that the transmission be mounted slightly further back and to the left of where I planned. The good news is the output flange of the transmission lines up very well with the wheel hub. And, I was able to sneak it up higher in the car, so the bottom of the car will be closer to flat. First up is the transmission mount...

I thought about serviceability when working on this mount. The transmission and bottom bracket are held in with two bolts. When removed, the entire assembly can drop out of the bottom of the car. I figure I will need to remove this assembly many times during this process. Plus, to change the oil in the transmission, it will likely be easiest to just drop the assembly, but we will see.

The transmission is larger in all dimensions that the original fiat transmission. It required that i cut some of the floor under the rear seat for clearance. That hole needed to be covered. I also plan to mount the motor controller under the rear seat. Typically, motor controllers like this are liquid cooled. I successfully cooled the motor controller in the Corvair with a big heat sink under the car. I want to do the same with this car. The controller needed to sit below the sheet metal under the rear seat. It will fit better under the seat, and it will put the heat sink closer to the bottom of the car for better cooling.

Getting the transmission into place allowed me to get the new shifter linkage and assembly mounted. I bought a complete VW beetle transmission shift assembly to graft in, rather than try to reuse the fiat assembly. My fiat shifter was very worn and I cannot get new parts. And I had to cut half of the mount away to fit the batteries. After I trimmed the shift rod down to fit, I can actually shift it.

I decided to move the hand brake to the other side of the driver seat, next to the door, like a 944. I am thinking that the suicide doors on this car will reduce the risk of getting in the way during egress. This will also keep the center tunnel area clear for the shifter and wiring and other stuff I haven't thought of yet.

I am working through a list of things I need to get done before primer. However, I keep adding to the list. Next I have to get some of the trunk sheet metal in. I have got to be getting closer!

 

[summersc]

One thing that does bother me and I hope you never have to deal with it, battery fire. When they go up they go up rapidly, I think this is why a lot of the kits available store them up front, allows you time to stop and escape, will there be some kind of containment......they're very close to your ass/other important bits and I suspect bbq'd genitals is a concern......
Also, weight, very well constructed but with all that weight and reinforcement will your range suffer more then you have figured?

@FR85 i noticed this article today and thought of your question. It seems that fires in EVs get more attention than gas cars, likely cuz they are novel and burn longer. Regardless, this article is interesting: https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225037/how-much-you-should-worry-about-ev-fires/

Here is the snippet about fires per 100k cars sold:
" ...accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles."

Converting an old car to EV isn't risk free, that's for sure. Nothing is, I reckon.

 

[AndyRKett]

Those statistics are very interesting, I su

@FR85 i noticed this article today and thought of your question. It seems that fires in EVs get more attention than gas cars, likely cuz they are novel and burn longer. Regardless, this article is interesting: https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225037/how-much-you-should-worry-about-ev-fires/

Here is the snippet about fires per 100k cars sold:
" ...accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles."

Converting an old car to EV isn't risk free, that's for sure. Nothing is, I reckon.

You have to consider that age of cars is not seemingly being factored in and in the US you have no universal system for checking how well maintained cars are.

So with electric cars really only appearing in the last 10-15 years there are unlikely to be many/any electric cars over 15 years old, while much older cars that are probably catching fire much more regularly.

That said I don’t think that your work on this car is any less safe than having a steel barrel of highly flammable gasoline inches from your face, which will definitely rupture in anything but the lightest of bumps. Where as battery packs only become a fire risk if ruptured and seeing as you’re sitting on top of them, if the battery has ruptured then you’re likely to be pretty badly injured anyway.

Most electric car fires tend to occur when they’re charging as well meaning usually there is no one in the car at the time.

Loving the build so far will be interested to see how this develops

 

[FR85]

@FR85 i noticed this article today and thought of your question. It seems that fires in EVs get more attention than gas cars, likely cuz they are novel and burn longer. Regardless, this article is interesting: https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225037/how-much-you-should-worry-about-ev-fires/

Here is the snippet about fires per 100k cars sold:
" ...accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles."

Converting an old car to EV isn't risk free, that's for sure. Nothing is, I reckon.

The major thing that startled me about that article: 30,000 gallons of water to extinguish one fire after an impact.
Everything poses a risk, ethanol in fuel could perish a pipe and then orange hot things happen but your not sitting on top of it. I'm just worried about your safety is all.
I remember when the 787 Dreamliner had battery fires, one Boeing engineer "acquired" a battery and took it out to the desert with a rifle.....as you do, took aim and fired. It was like a flame thrower, scary stuff.

I love the detail and work you are putting into the build, keep up the good work!

 

[FR85]

Can you take pics of the original parking brake setup if it's still there. On my 600 (1968 600d) it's to the rear brakes. Central cable that divides out to the left and right, doesn't interfere or connect to the gearbox at all.

 

[summersc]

Can you take pics of the original parking brake setup if it's still there. On my 600 (1968 600d) it's to the rear brakes. Central cable that divides out to the left and right, doesn't interfere or connect to the gearbox at all.

Sure thing. This is potentially really good news. I had no idea later cars had a traditional parking brake setup. Huh... I wonder if it would be easier to swap all those parts than attempting my scheme. I have worried about the car being in neutral, where applying my parking brake hack would have no effect.

Here is what the parking brake looks like on my transmission, a pic of the entire trans for orientation and a close up of the brake drum assembly. Its all pretty clever.

As for my safety, I truly appreciate the thoughtfulness and good discussion. You and @AndyRKett make excellent points. Thanks for that. I plan to devote a post to how I address safety. In the end, despite all my efforts, it will still be an old unsafe car (relatively).

 

[Badget]

Hi, any chance you could post some pics of the transmission install?
Specifically how it sots berween the suspension mounts?

I may have a plan to fit a vw transaxle in ny 850t

 

[AndyRKett]

The major thing that startled me about that article: 30,000 gallons of water to extinguish one fire after an impact.
Everything poses a risk, ethanol in fuel could perish a pipe and then orange hot things happen but your not sitting on top of it. I'm just worried about your safety is all.

Firstly worth noting that while the fuel tank in any normal car isn't immediately under the driver, (unless you're driving a van or an old landrover) it is almost always under the back seat where people tend to store their children during a journey. So I would not exactly say that any conventionally fueled vehicle is really and more 'safe' in that respect.

I remember when the 787 Dreamliner had battery fires, one Boeing engineer "acquired" a battery and took it out to the desert with a rifle.....as you do, took aim and fired. It was like a flame thrower, scary stuff.

I think this is a valid point and important not to let someone take your electric car into the desert and shoot the battery packs with a high powered riffle.

Generally though all electric cars have the battery pack under the driver. Teslas from S - Y have the Battery pack integral to the floor of the car. Nissan leaf have the pack in the floor. All the new comers like VW Id series, peugeot, ford etc all store the battery pack in the middle of the car, usually under the driver as this is the safest place for it to be, in the strongest point in the car where it is less likely to be damaged in an accident. Putting it way out up front means any accident and you risk the pack immediately rupturing and starting a fire in situations where the car may have taken minimal damage. The only reason a lot of conversions do this is that the car is not designed or built with space for the battery anywhere else to you either give up the boot, or you use the space around the motor, previously occupied by the engine. older rear engined cars like this tend to have very small engines and a very small amount of space leading to having to use the front of the car for the battery.

In this case the ability to completely fabricate a new floor and relocate the packs into the middle of the car, not only makes it safer, also improves the balance of the car and allows the weight to be put way down low. making it more stable as well.

This solution is the best of all worlds and exactly the same as what the major manufacturers are doing, and as seen in the stats above the number or electric cars catching fire is miniscule. And we no most electric car fires are caused during charging when there is no one in the car.

I don't understand why you're so concerned.
I'm sure you would not be so concerned with a tank of highly flammable liquid which can leak and spill out over a wide area can be ignited with the tiniest of sparks, and can accumulate fumes in places that build up and can lead to massive explosions. Not to mention the fumes can case respiratory problems and asphxiation when they accumulate in the air, and thats before they are burned and vented out an exhaust which on these older cars without catalytic convertors causes highly dangerous CO which can leak into the cabin and cause death.
Hopefully you see my point that a couple of battery packs under a seat really isn't all that big a deal.

 

[FR85]

Firstly worth noting that while the fuel tank in any normal car isn't immediately under the driver, (unless you're driving a van or an old landrover) it is almost always under the back seat where people tend to store their children during a journey. So I would not exactly say that any conventionally fueled vehicle is really and more 'safe' in that respect.


I think this is a valid point and important not to let someone take your electric car into the desert and shoot the battery packs with a high powered riffle.

Generally though all electric cars have the battery pack under the driver. Teslas from S - Y have the Battery pack integral to the floor of the car. Nissan leaf have the pack in the floor. All the new comers like VW Id series, peugeot, ford etc all store the battery pack in the middle of the car, usually under the driver as this is the safest place for it to be, in the strongest point in the car where it is less likely to be damaged in an accident. Putting it way out up front means any accident and you risk the pack immediately rupturing and starting a fire in situations where the car may have taken minimal damage. The only reason a lot of conversions do this is that the car is not designed or built with space for the battery anywhere else to you either give up the boot, or you use the space around the motor, previously occupied by the engine. older rear engined cars like this tend to have very small engines and a very small amount of space leading to having to use the front of the car for the battery.

In this case the ability to completely fabricate a new floor and relocate the packs into the middle of the car, not only makes it safer, also improves the balance of the car and allows the weight to be put way down low. making it more stable as well.

This solution is the best of all worlds and exactly the same as what the major manufacturers are doing, and as seen in the stats above the number or electric cars catching fire is miniscule. And we no most electric car fires are caused during charging when there is no one in the car.

I don't understand why you're so concerned.
I'm sure you would not be so concerned with a tank of highly flammable liquid which can leak and spill out over a wide area can be ignited with the tiniest of sparks, and can accumulate fumes in places that build up and can lead to massive explosions. Not to mention the fumes can case respiratory problems and asphxiation when they accumulate in the air, and thats before they are burned and vented out an exhaust which on these older cars without catalytic convertors causes highly dangerous CO which can leak into the cabin and cause death.
Hopefully you see my point that a couple of battery packs under a seat really isn't all that big a deal.

Firstly worth noting, please never ever under any circumstances store your children in the rear of a car, regardless of the location of the fuel tank or the journeys duration or distance. Please place them gently and securely in a properly installed, recognised and certified child seat (age depending) and ensure their safety and comfort. Never just store them, that is highly frowned upon. Remember, your children get to pick the nursing home you'll end up in, be kind to them and hopefully they just won't store you in some miserable dump until your amongst the departed.

The rifle comment was basically to show how volatile these batteries could be when ruptured and indeed how the flames can last for hours. I'm not suggesting you ask someone to go out and shoot your car in a desert, mother in law maybe but not your pride n joy, surely?

Yes, conventional fuel we use is highly combustible, I think that is the basis of its appeal, open to correction on that one.
Yes, there have been fuel fires but they tend to die down once its contents of the tank have depleted, a fire in a battery cell can go on for hours. If you read the article posted above and my comment, 30k gallons of retardant to put out one electric car fire.

I wasnt overly referring to impact damage, being in the middle low down there is a reduced risk of impact damage to them as you say unless you are really good, up for the challenge and have sheer determination with zero fear, i was referring more so to a home made design, home wiring ect and if there was to be a thermal runaway will the OP's design be up to it and allow enough time to stop and escape.
A lot of modern electric cars with sensors all over the place will undoubtedly pop up a warning message letting you know a bit in advance that a burned arse could be imminent and to pull over when safe to do so, a home made design may not allow this feature, i dont know if the op is going to have any form of fault detection in the build.

You correctly mention that the engine is in the rear of the 600 so unless you spend all day going around in reverse, the accumulation of CO leaking into the cabin causing death is relatively low, at least I hope it is as I have a 500, 600 and an 850.

I have stated that I'm all up for this build, I said so from the beginning, I think its brilliant that hes restoring and preserving rather then butchering an already good car as so many are doing.
I like what the guy is doing, he seems to be doing a top job and is also meticulous in his approach, research, calculations and at implementing and putting the puzzle together.
I asked the questions and raised the concerns so I could learn more from someone who has taken the time to do this research and who seems very generous with his time in explaining his findings and the steps hes taking and to appreciate the project more, not to shoot it down or indeed not be shot down for asking the same. Am I likely to do the same, no, I like originality but at the same time I like learning and seeing projects develop.

Hopefully you can also see my points and sorry about the way this post comes across, I saw attitude and gave it.
I've never seen another forum member on here give such a talking down to another member, it was a nice place to visit to gain advice and knowledge while at the same time not receiving a condescending lecture. Maybe you are having a bad day, if so I hope it improves.

 

[summersc]

Firstly worth noting, please never ever under any circumstances store your children in the rear of a car, regardless of the location of the fuel tank or the journeys duration or distance. Please place them gently and securely in a properly installed, recognised and certified child seat (age depending) and ensure their safety and comfort. Never just store them, that is highly frowned upon. Remember, your children get to pick the nursing home you'll end up in, be kind to them and hopefully they just won't store you in some miserable dump until your amongst the departed.

The rifle comment was basically to show how volatile these batteries could be when ruptured and indeed how the flames can last for hours. I'm not suggesting you ask someone to go out and shoot your car in a desert, mother in law maybe but not your pride n joy, surely?

Yes, conventional fuel we use is highly combustible, I think that is the basis of its appeal, open to correction on that one.
Yes, there have been fuel fires but they tend to die down once its contents of the tank have depleted, a fire in a battery cell can go on for hours. If you read the article posted above and my comment, 30k gallons of retardant to put out one electric car fire.

I wasnt overly referring to impact damage, being in the middle low down there is a reduced risk of impact damage to them as you say unless you are really good, up for the challenge and have sheer determination with zero fear, i was referring more so to a home made design, home wiring ect and if there was to be a thermal runaway will the OP's design be up to it and allow enough time to stop and escape.
A lot of modern electric cars with sensors all over the place will undoubtedly pop up a warning message letting you know a bit in advance that a burned arse could be imminent and to pull over when safe to do so, a home made design may not allow this feature, i dont know if the op is going to have any form of fault detection in the build.

You correctly mention that the engine is in the rear of the 600 so unless you spend all day going around in reverse, the accumulation of CO leaking into the cabin causing death is relatively low, at least I hope it is as I have a 500, 600 and an 850.

I have stated that I'm all up for this build, I said so from the beginning, I think its brilliant that hes restoring and preserving rather then butchering an already good car as so many are doing.
I like what the guy is doing, he seems to be doing a top job and is also meticulous in his approach, research, calculations and at implementing and putting the puzzle together.
I asked the questions and raised the concerns so I could learn more from someone who has taken the time to do this research and who seems very generous with his time in explaining his findings and the steps hes taking and to appreciate the project more, not to shoot it down or indeed not be shot down for asking the same. Am I likely to do the same, no, I like originality but at the same time I like learning and seeing projects develop.

Hopefully you can also see my points and sorry about the way this post comes across, I saw attitude and gave it.
I've never seen another forum member on here give such a talking down to another member, it was a nice place to visit to gain advice and knowledge while at the same time not receiving a condescending lecture. Maybe you are having a bad day, if so I hope it improves.

Hey all. While I appreciate the discussion of safety for my build, I respectfully request that we start another post about EV conversion safety, if desired. I apologize for stirring up the pot with that article post, but it’s clearly top of mind for folks and I encourage a discussion, in a focused thread.

 

[summersc]

Hi, any chance you could post some pics of the transmission install?
Specifically how it sots berween the suspension mounts?

I may have a plan to fit a vw transaxle in ny 850t

You got it... it's a tight fit and I chose to trim some of the suspension mounts. I found that the transaxle (thanks for reminding me its not JUST a transmission) fits best when the suspension mounts are lined up with these locations:

Also, the axles line up very well this way. I'd say I have about 10mm clearance between the transaxle and the trimmed mounts. Here are closeups of each side of the transaxle in its resting spot:

The other side is harder to capture in a picture, so its a side view. I wanted to make sure there was room for a nut between the mount and the transaxle:

as you can see, the filler bolt for the oil will be a pain to get to; that's why I mentioned above that I'll likely have to drop the motor/trans assembly for maintenance.

I hope this helps!

 

[Badget]

Thanks, that's great.
I always thought the 850 and 600 rear ends were almost identical but it looks like there are some mounting differences.

 

[ThomWatt01]

Great writeup and progress.

 

[summersc]

I am a bit bummed about my progress lately. I am being held up by a transaxle I ordered back in January. I was told the lead time was 8 weeks. 6 months later and I am still waiting. They assure me it's getting shipped this week, but we will see. The transaxle in the pics above is a craigslist special and needs a complete rebuild. I will be using it as a core. Rather than rebuild it myself, I thought it would be best to pay an experienced shop for one, with the final drive I want and the reinforced differential. I am grateful that I have a "test" transaxle to keep things moving while I wait, but its a different generation and I want to wait for the exact transaxle before designing the final mounts. I know the nose cone's are different. I will have to cut the input shaft and motor output shaft to fit, and I do not want to take any chances. So... I wait. In the meantime, I was able to get the hood and trunk fitted. The hood was especially fun. Between the new nose and the used hood, the latches did not line up at all. And, sometime in my car's life, the hood hinges were removed and replaced with simple hardware store hinges that mount on the surface. OEM hinges aren't something folks typically replace so finding replacements easily was troublesome. I ordered up a set of surface hinges for a 500 and when they arrived, I realized they are not flat on the bottom, so I had to design and print a simple spacer. In the end the fitment is good enough for me and the hinges look fine. When opening and closing the hood the corners get really close to dragging on the fenders. I will have to address that.

And the hood latch now works.

When I rebuilt the rear window frame, I am happy I had the foresight to drill location holes for the trunk hinges. Mounting them was a cinch and the fit looks good enough for me.

I will be plugging abandoned mounting and wiring holes in the front, some welding in the middle, and add jacking reinforcement to the back, just in front of the rear tires. When the transaxle arrives, I will assemble that, make more mounts and get the motor/trans assembly test fitted. It finally feels like I am getting close to primer.

 

[summersc]

One particularly fun thing I have been working on are the interior bits. I have sheetmetal cadded up and knobs and switches on order. When designing the parts, I wanted to incorporate music controls. I don't like getting my phone out to adjust volume (or for anything, really). So, I added volume (which is also on/off) and tone controls.

The previous owner of this car, "Uncle Dave" as I know him, drove this car all over the US (to texas and back, I was told) and was a trumpet player. He seems to be an eccentric character that lived on the Oregon coast. Here is a picture of him that came with the car.

I thought it would be fun to honor this guy a bit by borrowing sheet music symbols for the knobs. I added a bass and treble clef for the tone controls. fun!

I have access to a laser engraver and will burn those into the aluminum plate, along with the HVAC symbols.

 

[summersc]

I was reading through the Bounding Bambinos build thread and saw the rack and pinion conversion he did, and it looks great. I wondered if I could also convert my 600 to a rack and pinion setup. I emailed a few shops and called around and it appears there isn't a 600 kit folks offer, so I would have to build up something myself. In one of the emails I got back from a shop in EU, they casually mentioned that the suspension (front specifically) on these cars is noisy. That is of particular concern to me since I will not have engine noise to mask it. In fact, I have been chasing rear wheel noise in my Corvair for 3 years (clicks, groans and rattles) and without engine noise, its very bothersome. I have rebuilt the brakes, greased the bearings, replaced the universal joints and it is still noisy. Its safe to say, this little tidbit of info from the EU supplier got me thinking. So.... I am now considering a coilover conversion, at least for the front. I am undecided on it now, but I also know that the shock mounts and other bits in the front end *should* be reinforced for this conversion. I have seen arguments both ways, but since my car will be heavier, and with all the rust, I think its best to add some reinforcement. This should happen BEFORE paint, so that is what I have been working on while waiting for the transaxle. I added structure to the stop shock mount, added a "strut tower" brace, and reinforced the area around the upper control arm. Here is what that looks like:

The brace I added to the INSIDE of the fender well.

It slips through the firewall and gets tack welded to the sheetmetal down by the passengers feet.

The strut tower brace.

I am undecided on the coilover conversion. The kits I have found are pretty pricey. I may wait and see how noisy the leaf spring is first. And, I am still unclear on where the ride height will end up, so I know I will be dialing that in after its all assembled. Maybe coilovers, with adjustable spring perches will be the best option. I also love the idea of having an adjustable lower control arm to dial in any camber.

Have any other 600 owners noticed suspension noise coming from their cars?

 

[summersc]

The VW transaxle finally arrived. So far, things are bolting up nicely. The "parking brake" assembly is coming together nicely as well. Here are some pics of the test fitting the motor, adapter plate and clutch coupler.

Next up, test fitting in the car and getting the motor and front trans mount welded up. I am very excited!

 

[summersc]

And now the motor/trans is in the car! I will have a challenge with the left rear swing arm bolt, but I have a plan.

Primer is just around the corner.

 

[summersc]

My fiat is now sealed with epoxy! We wire-brushed the whole car, sanded and cleaned it according to the instructions, and got to painting. In the end, it was a pain in the ass and I don’t recommend folks do it this way. The epoxy roll-on system works well for exterior panels but is a serious pain for inside and under the car. I have runs galore. But now it’s sealed and I can sleep better knowing it’s not going to start rusting. It’s been a nearly a year since this project started so rusting (post dip) was becoming a real risk. Here are some pics. Next up, finish sealing up the doors and hood then onto body filler and dent removal! I think a freshly wire-brushed car looks rad.

And after sealing: