Technical 187A1000 Timing belt collision

[Zwyczajny]

In Poland, we do not have clear data, there are only legends about the 187A1000 1.1 8V engine timing collision.
There is a belief that the engine up to and including 2005 - the one with the square filler cap is collision-free, and the one from 2006 - with the round cap.
Are there confirmed cases of belt breakage and valve damage in the engine after 2006?

 

[koalar]

In Poland, we do not have clear data, there are only legends about the 187A1000 1.1 8V engine timing collision.
There is a belief that the engine up to and including 2005 - the one with the square filler cap is collision-free, and the one from 2006 - with the round cap.
Are there confirmed cases of belt breakage and valve damage in the engine after 2006?

It is confusing

For example two identical 1.2 engines

1242cc 8v 188A4.000 Punto
(9.5 compression) non interference

1242cc 8v 188A4.000 Panda
(9.8 compression )Interference

Pretty much all 1.1 and 1.2 engines in the Panda are interference. But the chances are good that if the belt snaps or skips you will get away with only having to change the belt at lest up to the 65/69 HP

Several have snapped without damage

Würth Online World lists all panda engines as interference

 

[Zwyczajny]

while checking the bushings, I decided to replace the sealant on the oil pump and when installing the belt, the timing wheel bounced on the valves - the belt moved and there are no marks on my engine from setting the upper wheel and now I'm just worried if I will set it right.
I guess the only way out will be to buy a wheel lock to replace the timing belt.
But I did an experiment right away and as soon as I took off the belt, wheel and pump, I turned the connecting rod and I did not encounter a collision with the valves (without moving the upper wheel)
so I'm hoping nothing will break when I put it all back together.

 

[koalar]

Yes it will be fine

Does your belt have timing lines on the outside of the belt.

 

[Zwyczajny]

Yes, have. I've buyed Dayco, lines are match, but never know...
I'm not sure about position od marks on engine body.

 

[koalar]

Bottom should be here

 

[koalar]

There’s probably none at the top as these are normally cam and crank locked here’s what an early block looks like

 

[Zwyczajny]

I agree with the correct position of the wheels, but both in this photo are probably half a tooth too high and this is due to the rotation of the entire belt, but one tooth on top is two teeth on the bottom.
the last photo you added unfortunately refers to the first generation of the engine where there are marks on the pump and head block.

I'm pretty sure it's fine, but just to be sure, I'll buy a lock and sleep soundly.
I had the biggest fears of a collision, as if I had set it wrong, but I didn't hear any clatter when turning my hand without the belt, so I hope I didn't damage anything.

 

[koalar]

As long as the belt marks line up with the pulley marks and the engine turns over freely by hand with the spark plugs out.

I don’t see a problem

If you lock the cam you will also need a valve cover gasket and some RTV sealant, probably some o rings as well but I haven’t had the valve cover off the later 1.1

 

[DaveMcT]

You are supposed to loosen the cam pulley before tensioning the belt. This allows the belt to tension equally all around and is necessary if the cylinder head has been removed.

However, if you are service replacing the belt, there is no need to loosen the cam wheel. Set the cam to the timing marks and lock the crank, tension the belt and turn the engine 720 degrees. The cam will be out by one tooth. Lok the rank again and repeat the belt tension with the cam set one tooth out of step. Tensioning will pull it into line and all will be well.

Please note, a one tooth timing error will not cause valve impact on any interference engine. It will affect power and economy of course.

 

[koalar]

You are supposed to loosen the cam pulley before tensioning the belt. This allows the belt to tension equally all around and is necessary if the cylinder head has been removed.

Incorrect

You are suppose to set the camshaft pulley using two locking tool one at the back and front of the camshaft

As per Fiat, CONTITECH, SKF instructions PDF already been posted

However, if you are service replacing the belt, there is no need to loosen the cam wheel.

Correct

Set the cam to the timing marks and lock the crank, tension the belt and turn the engine 720 degrees. The cam will be out by one tooth. Lok the rank again and repeat the belt tension with the cam set one tooth out of step. Tensioning will pull it into line and all will be well.

Please note, a one tooth timing error will not cause valve impact on any interference engine. It will affect power and economy of course.

Correct

 

[DaveMcT]

Locking the cam AND locking the crank will cause the belt tensioner to pull one side of the belt tight while the other side stays loose. The tensions equalise when you take off the locks, and the cam will move out of time by one tooth. This is how I found the mis-timing issue and went to the paint marking method.

 

[koalar]

Locking the cam AND locking the crank will cause the belt tensioner to pull one side of the belt tight while the other side stays loose. The tensions equalise when you take off the locks, and the cam will move out of time by one tooth. This is how I found the mis-timing issue and went to the paint marking method.

It’s better to use the correct tool

You can fit and tighten the cam pulley with out the belt as per eLearn

You can fit the belt without undoing the cam pulley as per eLearn

You can not fit the timing belt with both the cam and crank locked

If you use the belt to set the pulley it can be slightly out why not use the correct locking tool

 

[eeeno]

SKF video for 1.4 doesn't say anything about loosening the cam pulley and for my surprise not even the mechanics had ever touched the bolt either. However, Gates manual does mention it.

I got the right side of the belt very tight and all the slack behind the tensioner and somehow it worked out with cam and crank locked. I turned the engine several times though and double/triple checked the timing with tools. All good. I'd not dare to leave the cam unlocked because it was such a hassle with the tensioner anyway. Oh well. Next time I'm going to do it the correct way.

Only a very brave person uses the markings only.

 

[Yolanda]

It is confusing

For example two identical 1.2 engines

1242cc 8v 188A4.000 Punto
(9.5 compression) non interference

1242cc 8v 188A4.000 Panda
(9.8 compression )Interference

Pretty much all 1.1 and 1.2 engines in the Panda are interference. But the chances are good that if the belt snaps or skips you will get away with only having to change the belt at lest up to the 65/69 HP

Several have snapped without damage

Würth Online World lists all panda engines as interference

I thought all 1242cc 8 valve engines with single cam were non interference

 

[koalar]

I thought all 1242cc 8 valve engines with single cam were non interference

Not sure where this comes from its all over the internet

maybe because the same engine but with a lower compression is used in the punto has always been freewheeling

expect for a few rare exceptions all Panda engines have always been interference

That’s using data from Wurth, Fiat technicians, Delphi and autodata

That doesn’t mean any noticeable damage will occur because it’s classed as interface and certainly not from a few degrees while changing a belt

Plenty of example of interference engines including the panda only needing a new belt.

depends on carbon build up, engine revs, connecting rod wear, big end wear, engine hot or cold plain pot luck and much more

Even then a slight ding isn’t going to stop an engine running if the belt is changed

 

[Yolanda]

The above pics show the camshaft sprocket being locked in position, On my engine the sprocket is on a key way I know this as I fitted a new belt when I first got the car some 18 months ago. In a previous post you say the engine is of an interference type but if the belt slips or snaps it doesn't do any damage, so I'm a bit confused there.
Also how would I find out what compression ratio mine is.
Thanks in advance.

 

[koalar]

The above pics show the camshaft sprocket being locked in position, On my engine the sprocket is on a key way I know this as I fitted a new belt when I first got the car some 18 months ago. In a previous post you say the engine is of an interference type but if the belt slips or snaps it doesn't do any damage, so I'm a bit confused there.
Also how would I find out what compression ratio mine is.
Thanks in advance.

Confusing interference and damage

Any angine where the pistons and valves come within 0.1mm (4 thousands) when cold and turned by hand is classed as interference

That to allow for heat expansion of the connecting rod and stretch at high revs

The pistons are dished it’s only very edge of the valve that not over the dish

The image of the cam locking tool was to correct the wrong information above in post 10 and is nothing to do with the original post

If you want you can strip the engine down and put some clay on the valves turn cam and crank over a few times and scrap the clay off and measurer not done this myself I have taken autodata / fiats word for it


Unless it’s a 2003 1.1 it’s classed as an interference

 

[koalar]

Also how would I find out what compression ratio mine is.
Thanks in advance.

UK

1.2 60hp = 9.8 ± 0.2
1.2 69hp = 11,1 ± 0,2

 

[Zwyczajny]

Okay, today i recieved timing lock ale disassembly Valve cover.
I'm supprised about engine condition.

Okay, i Hope i done this okay.