Technical how to identify timing belt kit?

[Pepandaros]

Hi all,
Hopefully someone could point me in the right direction as I'm struggling to order the correct timing belt kit for my '09 Panda 1.1 eco.
I have wiggled the plastic top cover off to take a note of the current installed belt, it's a Gates 5627XS 129 teeth 22mm wide and most motorfactors are indicating a 125 teeth belt for my engine. According the Gates own website I should use the 5626XS which has 125 teeth.
Most sellers like carparts4less and autodoc also indicating 125 teeth.

The main differences seem between engine numbers up to 2533527 (15mm width) and 22mm for numbers from 2533528. my engine number is 5305604..
Is there perhaps a way to obtain the factory fitted belt details for cross references?

 

[varesecrazy]

Look on a specialist site..

Try shop4parts.

VIN plate numbers may be informative... It's in the boot

 

[jackwhoo]

@Pugglt Auld Jock

 

[jackwhoo]

Belts for these engines have been covered extensively before.
Fingers crossed Jock will pop up and give you a synopsis.

My first thought looking at your photo is the belt groove profile does not fit the pulley teeth correctly - but hard to tell from photos sometimes

 

[Pepandaros]

Look on a specialist site..

Try shop4parts.

VIN plate numbers may be informative... It's in the boot

I have tried them, they don't have much from their stock advertised on the website for the 1.1 so will call them next week.

 

[Pepandaros]

Belts for these engines have been covered extensively before.
Fingers crossed Jock will pop up and give you a synopsis.

My first thought looking at your photo is the belt groove profile does not fit the pulley teeth correctly - but hard to tell from photos sometimes

I had a proper look through all the relevant threads but couldn't find anything which gave me a clue or answer.

And yes, that was also my first thought after I lifted the cover and I really wonder if this is the right belt..

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Belts for these engines have been covered extensively before.
Fingers crossed Jock will pop up and give you a synopsis.

My first thought looking at your photo is the belt groove profile does not fit the pulley teeth correctly - but hard to tell from photos sometimes

Thanks for your trust in me Jack but, Well, I don't know how much help I'm going to be here. When Ordering belts for anything I most often just ring up my local factor and give him the reg no. (very occasionally he'll want a VIN too) A few minutes later he tells me if he's got it on the shelf and I pop round and collect it - he's nearly always got it for immediate purchase. I also always check the old belt against the new one by laying them on top of each other to check for same number of teeth and width (and anything else that doesn't match up visually like an obvious difference in tooth profile) I don't actually count number of teeth or take a rule to measure belt width. Mostly I buy complete kits with tensioner and water pump - if the pump is part of the belt drive train - so if the tensioner or pump looks different to that already on the vehicle then that would also be cause for me to suspect the kit may be the wrong one.

I'm well aware there are different belts, for instance the belt on the older engines (for instance my old '99 panda Parade) was a much more flimsy affair with more widely spaced teeth. However my approach is the same - see what the factor supplies and then match it with what's already on the engine.

If it's of any interest I've still got the last two belts I did on our 2010 1.2 8 valve 60 hp Panda and my boy's 2012 1.4 8 valve Punto, both FIRE engines and both belts are the 129 tooth at somewhere around 20, maybe 22 mm wide. Unfortunately the lettering is no longer visible on them.

Pepandaros, that top pulley in your picture looks absolutely identical to the one on our Panda and the belt fitted looks the same even down to the way it's running towards the rear of the pulley (both our Panda and my boy's Punto belts run like that). You're talking about "Most Motor Factors" are we talking on line vendors here or local trade sources? At 2009 I'd take bets - but I could be wrong - on it being the same belt as that for our 2010 1.2 engine, in which case the 129 tooth belt would be correct.

Why not try contacting a local factor direct and taking the old belt in for him/her to see, or, if you don't want to disable the car show him/her the picture you've shown us here. In my experience they are usually very helpful and a trade factor is not likely to charge you much more than an online seller if at all. Making friends with your local factor is a good move anyway if you're going to be needing to buy car parts on an ongoing basis.

My turn to make the tea today so I'm off to do that now - I'll be back later if I have any more to contribute.

 

[koalar]

Your original has 125

Thats what I would use

CT997 up to 2533527 = 125 teeth narrow
CT1114 after 2533527 = 125 teeth wide

Tooth profile is also different

There's three different methods of timing the engine does yours have a round or square oil filler

 

[jackwhoo]

I'm thinking I'm seeing a round filler in top right of picture ....
@koalar great question re-oil filler type... could the change from square to round oil filler cap correspond with change in belt ?

Cheers
Jack

 

[koalar]

I'm thinking I'm seeing a round filler in top right of picture ....
@koalar great question re-oil filler type... could the change from square to round oil filler cap correspond with change in belt ?

Cheers
Jack

By 2009 I think they were all round, but there's so many variable, country, late registration re registration and so on.

I think you are right there's a bit of the round filler showing which I didn't spot

Early square
No locking tools, just timing marks

Later square
Timing marks on crank, locking tool for cam, often done wrong

Round
Locking tool for both, and a seperate tool for correctly setting correctly timing the cam pulley, not need as you can set the timing without undoing the pulley bolt. See my thread random thoughts

No the parts are not swapable

The way the oil for the camshaft journals are completely different,

If you take the cam cover off you will need new gaskets and o rings

It should be possible if you are carefull to make your own timing marks and just do it from the front, I saw a video of someone doing a ka mk2 this way a few years ago, I haven't done one this way myself, hopefully it's still on youtube

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm thinking I'm seeing a round filler in top right of picture ....
@koalar great question re-oil filler type... could the change from square to round oil filler cap correspond with change in belt ?

Cheers
Jack

Went from square rubber to round plastic long before 2009 didn't it?

Look on a specialist site..

Try shop4parts.

VIN plate numbers may be informative... It's in the boot

Better still, give them a ring for advice. They are very knowledgeable people and not at all pushy. Have freely given me valued advice in the past. I suppose the thing is that if it was running well without any reason to doubt it on the existing belt, then it's probably the right one?

My first thought looking at your photo is the belt groove profile does not fit the pulley teeth correctly - but hard to tell from photos sometimes

Ah, you noticed that too? - Tooth profile I mean. This aspect and belt materials and construction in general interest me very much. I've looked at lots of belts and how they mesh with the pulley teeth over the years and often noticed that, on a belt that's "done it's time", there's a bit of clearance, only a wee bit mind you, between the side of the belt tooth and the pulley tooth on the "trailing side" of the tooth. I think this is just due to normal compaction and wear of the belt material when it ages. Tooth pitch doesn't seem to alter.

Think back a few years, well maybe more than a few? and square tooth profiles which exactly matched the pulley teeth were common. Now a rounded profile seems to be in favour? Here's a selection of belts I've done over the last few years, on the "Family Fleet", so not just Fiats.



They're pretty much all rounded profile:



But hang on a wee minute. Look at the two belts at the bottom:

Unlike all the others they have a wee "slot?" running along the top of their teeth which the others don't. I'll comer back to them in a minute.

I'm interested enough in this that I've had several email conversations with manufacturers about belts in general and tooth profile in particular. I've always found Gates very helpful in the past so I wasn't surprised that they engaged quite openly with me. It appears that, of course, the tooth pitch is very important but the actual shape of the tooth is less so because the drive is transmitted through the base of the tooth where it meets the main part of the belt. This is why any cracking observed at the base of the teeth is very important and indicates an immediate renewal of the belt is required.

Surprisingly, although I'm sure it's important, the profile of the tooth seems less critical. I've noticed that most of the genuine Fiat belts I've removed have that wee slot I talked about above. Here's an old one from my '99 Panda Parade:

which you can see has the slots. and here's the ones I took off the Panda and Punto a couple of years ago:

Both are original fitment genuine Fiat belts and you'll have seen right away that one has the slots and the other doesn't - identical belts in all other respects complete with their Fiat/Alfa/Lancia logos. I replaced both with the recommended Gates belt kits where the belts had rounded teeth with no slots.

Some time after that I had a conversation with the Gates people about the slots because I wondered if the slots had something to do with allowing the teeth to flex more freely as the belt bends and straightens. The answer I got was to do with copyright and ownership of the tooth profile design rather than a physical difference in performance of the tooth design. I had wondered also whether it was something to do with belt noise where the belt was meshing with the pulley teeth when running, but I've noticed no difference. The belt with the slots was from the Panda and it was making a small amount of noise from where the belt meshes with the cam pulley teeth before the new belt was fitted which is unchanged with the new Gates belt which doesn't have the slots. At the end of the day Fiat won't be actually manufacturing their own belts so I think the tooth profile will depend on the actual manufacturer of the belt - got a slight suspicion that the slotted design "belongs" to Continental, but can't really tell you why I think this.

I'm interested also in the materials used and whether it's incorporated into production thus allowing newer versions of the belts to be longer living. For instance Dayco seems to make a big thing about the tooth facing material on their belts. https://www.ymfcarparts.co.uk/blog/dayco-white-belt-timing-belt-kits/ - some sort of PTFE I think? You can see here that it's white on this belt from my Ibiza:

I didn't actually do the belt replacement on this one myself but I did ask the garage to make sure it was replaced with an identical belt and I doubt if I'll still have the car when it's due it's next one.

By the way, don't just throw away all the old belts. They are phenomenally strong and can be used for battery hold down straps etc. I've got one securing my jump start battery to a wooden base:



which makes it a bit less liable to tipping over when being transported in the car and makes it easier for me to secure it to the lugs in the boot with bungees. I've also used them with the farm jack to pull "stuff" - they don't stretch at all.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The way the oil for the camshaft journals are completely different,

Yup, earlier engines have a separate pipe inside the cam cover whereas the later engine feeds it through driillings in the cover itself (as I'm sure you know koalar so no insult intended) I'm pretty sure that if your cam cover has 4 wee bolts holding it on then it's the type with a separate pipe - 8 bolts means it's going to need a new gasket and "O" rings when you reassemble it as the oil supply for the cam and vvt (on later versions) travels through drillings in the cover.

If you take the cam cover off you will need new gaskets and o rings

As mentioned above. make sure, if you're buying your gasket kit from a factor etc (ie. not main dealer) that it has the built in O ring on the main gasket and the 4 O rings for the cam seals. Cheap kits often don't include the 4 separate O rings

It should be possible if you are carefull to make your own timing marks and just do it from the front, I saw a video of someone doing a ka mk2 this way a few years ago, I haven't done one this way myself, hopefully it's still on youtube

Yup, experimented extensively with this on both our non VVT Panda and my boy's VVT Punto and you can definitely do it by the "tippex" method without slackening the cam pullet retaining bolt. HOWEVER, and this is very important, you have to be very sure that the unkeyed cam pulley is correctly timed to the cam before you start. If the car has never had a belt done before - ie, it's the first belt change since rolling out the factory doors - then you can be pretty sure of this. If you can't be sure of this then, if it's been running well, plenty of power and good fuel consumption, then it's very likely ok too. However it's true to say that because the later engines have no timing marks for the cam pulley and the pulley is not keyed to the camshaft, then, you'll never really know if the cam pulley is correctly timed to the camshaft unless you use a set of timing (engine locking) tools on it to verify this.

I'm a great believer in "letting sleeping dogs lie" so I'm reluctant to undo that very tight cam sprocket bolt unless I really need to. I do have a set of the timing tools for the 8 valve engines so, if it's an engine/car I'm not familiar with I will set the engine up with the locking tools and reassure myself that the valve train is correctly timed before I start. If the tools all drop into place as they should then I don't undo the cam bolt and simply fit the new belt (and tensioner and water pump) by the tippex method - be careful though, I've seen many reports of people getting it one tooth out so you need to be familiar with engines and know what you're doing. Interestingly, perhaps? I find doing it this way I've not so far had to do a Phonic wheel relearn either. however If, using the timing tools, I find the cam pulley is incorrectly timed then I would slacken it's bolt and set it up using the locking tools - so far not had to do that. Of course to do this you've got to take the cam cover off to install the cam locking bar which you don't have to do if you don't check it and simply do the cam belt from the front end by the tippex method. I've had people say why do you bother taking the cover off because it adds a lot of time and you'll probably need a new gasket and O ring seals? I'd say though that you need to always check the cam pulley timing on an engine you don't know and anyway, the cam cover gaskets seem to last roughly for the life of a cambelt before they start leaking and the O rings harden too, so you're as well changing them anyway.

Just for my own interest I did a wee "survey" around some of the small garages around me asking whether they would use timing tools to do one of these and most said no, they'd be happy to just mark the pulleys. I was talking with my local factor about timing modern engines and the need for locking tools and he said, Jock, just ask if you ever need them, We keep a small stock of these for loan against deposit to our better customers. So if you don't damage it I think the loan is for free. Might be your local factor has a similar scheme which, if you're well known to them, you could avail yourself of - another reason why buying from your local factor and making a friend of him is a good idea.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

My turn to make the tea today so I'm off to do that now - I'll be back later if I have any more to contribute.

Oh yum yum, that was good. Recotta, mushroom and spinach pizza followed by some of Strachan's Traditional vanilla Scottish Ice cream from Aldi: https://groceries.aldi.co.uk/en-GB/...ditional-dairy-ice-cream-2litre/4088600007342 absolutely delicious! The pizza was great but a little bland. Next time I think I'll put a few thin strips of tinned anchovies on the pizza to liven it up a bit!

 

[Pepandaros]

Many thanks guys for all your thoughts and time taken for all the extensive replies!

I have the feeling that sourcing the right parts going to take longer than actually fitting them...

 

[koalar]

Many thanks guys for all your thoughts and time taken for all the extensive replies!

I have the feeling that sourcing the right parts going to take longer than actually fitting them...

Yes online part ordering can be difficult most just list everything as 2004 - 2012 which often is wrong

With the right tools it's very quick

I have several socket sets

The first time it took me ages trying to remove the engine mount until I realised the 1/2 sockets are slightly longer and with my breaker bar fitted perfectly in the gap between the mount and the chassis


You can also move the engine up and down a few inches to make access better