General 1.2 8v overheating

[RicardoS]

Hi. I have bought a punto 6speed and the 1.1 engine and signs of bad headgasket. Sometimes had bluesmoke and some times white smoke no thermostat and the outside of radiator was covered with orange dust from water coming out of cap.
After taking the engine out i decided to replace it with the 1.2 8v.
I picked up te 1.2 at the scrapyard did a cold engine dry compression test and all cylinders wore about 125 psi.

The problem is today 5 days later after fitting the engine it started overheating but only when driving above 2500/3000 rpm. At idle the fan kicks in as normal there are no bubles in the radiator and it runs fine.
While driving above the 2500 rpm the temp gauge will go past the midlle and will keep going up and the fan runs but cant cool it down and as soon as i turn off the engine the coolant immediately gushes out through the cap.

Could the headgasket be the problem or maybe the water pump or radiator?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi. I have bought a punto 6speed and the 1.1 engine and signs of bad headgasket. Sometimes had bluesmoke and some times white smoke no thermostat and the outside of radiator was covered with orange dust from water coming out of cap.
After taking the engine out i decided to replace it with the 1.2 8v.
I picked up te 1.2 at the scrapyard did a cold engine dry compression test and all cylinders wore about 125 psi.

The problem is today 5 days later after fitting the engine it started overheating but only when driving above 2500/3000 rpm. At idle the fan kicks in as normal there are no bubles in the radiator and it runs fine.
While driving above the 2500 rpm the temp gauge will go past the midlle and will keep going up and the fan runs but cant cool it down and as soon as i turn off the engine the coolant immediately gushes out through the cap.

Could the headgasket be the problem or maybe the water pump or radiator?

It could be a partially blocked radiator was the cause of the first engine failure and now you have fitted a slightly bigger engine.
Sometimes by feel or with an laser temp tester you may notice colder parts of the radiator.
It is unlikely cleaning the rad. will cure it so best fit a new one, maybe compatible with the bigger engine unless supplier states it is good for both.
By the way Never release the radiator cap on a hot engine!!!
This is for two reasons. No.1 Serious danger of burns to you.
No.2 On releasing the pressure cap the water will boil damaging the engine.
The reason for this is once the liquid water becomes a gas/steam the gas causes localised hot spots in the engine much hotter than the water.Cracking or distorting the cylinder head etc.
The job of the pressurised radiator cap is to stop the water becoming a gas.
For every lb of pressure the water will not boil above 100Centigrade by another 1.5 degrees , so a 10 lb cap (roughly .7Bar) will start to boil at 115 Degrees Centigrade, thereby keeping your engine safe until you open that radiator cap!!!
A useless bit of information is that this is the reason mountaineers at the top of a high mountain cannot boil water to make a good cup of tea due to low air pressure, whereas at sea level it is much higher.

 

[RicardoS]

The radiator is the same for both engines and i never removed the cap with the engine. The coolant just gets out through the cap as the temp neddle goes to the 3/4 lines.

Is there a way to test the radiator for blocage apart from checking for cold spots?

Also this motor has whining noise on the cambelt side. The sound is like an alterntor whine but its not the alternator as i runnint without the alternator and it does the noise

 

[bugsymike]

The radiator is the same for both engines and i never removed the cap with the engine. The coolant just gets out through the cap as the temp neddle goes to the 3/4 lines.

Is there a way to test the radiator for blocage apart from checking for cold spots?

Also this motor has whining noise on the cambelt side. The sound is like an alterntor whine but its not the alternator as i runnint without the alternator and it does the noise

Good you haven't released pressure.
It sound like a blocked rad. to me as in runs hot but not to the point of boiling whilst driving along, as though the rad cannot get rid of the heat.
A specialist can flow test the radiator or with top and bottom hoses off you could run water through in both directions and see if any muck comes out.
The fact the old engine overheated and the new one does too seem to point to the rad.
I would look at the whining noise, if you take the cam cover off and run the engine, if VERY careful you can use a long screwdriver as a stethoscope to transmit the noise back to your ear from the cambelt guide bearings etc. also check belt hasn't been overtightened as can damage water pump if driven from belt on your model of engine.
Do be careful doing screwdriver test, I have done it many times , but it is not without risk

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

By the way Never release the radiator cap on a hot engine!!!
This is for two reasons. No.1 Serious danger of burns to you.
No.2 On releasing the pressure cap the water will boil damaging the engine.
The reason for this is once the liquid water becomes a gas/steam the gas causes localised hot spots in the engine much hotter than the water.Cracking or distorting the cylinder head etc.
The job of the pressurised radiator cap is to stop the water becoming a gas.
For every lb of pressure the water will not boil above 100Centigrade by another 1.5 degrees , so a 10 lb cap (roughly .7Bar) will start to boil at 115 Degrees Centigrade, thereby keeping your engine safe until you open that radiator cap!!!
A useless bit of information is that this is the reason mountaineers at the top of a high mountain cannot boil water to make a good cup of tea due to low air pressure, whereas at sea level it is much higher.

Excellent advice Mike. I think many people will know the advice is not to remove the cap on a hot engine but what people don't realize is the danger of decompression on the coolant. So, if we think about this for a minute - Water boils and becomes gaseous at 100 degrees centigrade, we all know that, but let's think about the implications of this on an overheating pressurized cooling system. If your system is overheating, so temp gauge into the red and maybe even some gurgling, bubbling noises and coolant escaping etc, As Mike says above, because the system's pressure cap is raising the boiling point of the coolant, the actual coolant is going to be in excess of 100 degrees C, and that means probably most of the coolant in the engine. Now you take the cap off which instantly reduces the pressure to atmospheric and most of the water in the engine turns, instantly, to steam! The result can be that you now have a geyser to rival Old Faithful exiting through the filler orifice! Believe me, it has to be seen to be fully appreciated how dangerous this can be.

People do take filler caps off a hot engine and get away with it, so how is this? well, most thermostats open at somewhere around 95 to 98 degrees C and they are directly in the coolant flow from the cylinder head so situated at the hottest part of the cooling system. If the system is working normally, because the head will be the hottest part of the system, most of the coolant in the rest of the system will be at a lesser temperature so won't boil and become gaseous upon removal of the pressure cap. Different situation in an over heating engine where much larger volumes of the coolant will be potentially at or above the critical temperature.

Having said all that, don't think I'm recommending you to start loosening coolant filler caps on hot engines! If you do then you need to ask yourself the Harry Callaghan question - Do you feel lucky?

 

[RicardoS]

Im going to try the screwdriver method. I dont know why the other engine overheted before i bought it but i do know by loking at it that it was using tap water for a very long time. The freeze plug on the belt side was rotten and so was the cylinder wall on that plug

 

[bugsymike]

Im going to try the screwdriver method. I dont know why the other engine overheted before i bought it but i do know by loking at it that it was using tap water for a very long time. The freeze plug on the belt side was rotten and so was the cylinder wall on that plug

That is a good point if only used tap water, antifreeze is also a corrosion inhibitor so important on a modern engine with a mix of metals even if not living in a colder climate.
This is another indicator that all that rust and muck could well be blocking the radiator.
As @Pugglt Auld Jock says re the risks of hot coolant, many years ago after driving 30 miles from a rowing regatta a friend pulled up ahead in his Hillman Imp and opened his radiator cap before we could warn him, he turned away but only had shorts and a T shirt on and had severe burns up his back as a result!

 

[bugsymike]

Another possible but not common to me fault would be if the impeller on the water pump was damaged.
Also when you are looking at the cambelt area check with engine off for any signs of water pump bearing failure, usually a small drip or coolant stain from the little drain hole at underneath waterpump.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Im going to try the screwdriver method. I dont know why the other engine overheted before i bought it but i do know by loking at it that it was using tap water for a very long time. The freeze plug on the belt side was rotten and so was the cylinder wall on that plug

I'm a great believer in the "screwdriver" test. Over the years I've found it so useful I actually went out and bought a "proper" automotive stethoscope: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/28174871...s1Qu2TJbFr9Aw3FptEwotgYuM=|tkp:BlBMUNj5_sfDYg Not expensive and it's been a good investment.

I'm also a great believer in deploying a "listening tube". Which is a suitable length of flexible tube one end of which you hold to your ear while you move the other end around the engine whilst listening for unusual noises. Often you can hear noises the stethoscope/screwdriver doesn't pick up on, but the stethoscope/screwdriver can pick up on stuff the listening tube doesn't hear - they are complimentary.

Our Becky led me a very merry dance with cambelt drivetrain noises. When I bought her she had a slight whine from the front end of the engine. I suspected something like alternator/water pump/tensioner bearing and tried to negotiate an extra "slug" of money off but without success. The dealer said "they all do that, I've got a KA (same engine) in the workshop for a service right now which does it worse than this one". I didn't really believe him but as the Panda was heavily discounted - I'd been watching it for a number of weeks as he reduced the price - I decided to just buy it anyway as I'd already decided to do the cambelt if I bought it. A soon as I got it home I checked out the alternator front bearing but it was nice and quiet. So, some weeks later, I fitted a Gates belt kit, which included the water pump, and expected the noise to go away. (the old water pump was very slightly "grindy" when spun by hand) But, Oh dear, no! It sounded pretty much the same as before.

I then spent some time trying to find out where the wee whine was coming from. It does sound very much like a bearing in the very early stages of failing. So I then took off the aux (fan) belt and ran the engine, but it was still there, so definitely not the Alternator or Air con compressor. Then I took the engine mount off again and removed the belt covers so I had good access to the belt drive components and went looking with my stethoscope on the water pump and tensioner - but couldn't hear any sign of the noise. This was very strange because without the stethoscope plugged into my ears I could hear the noise. Then tried the stethoscope on everything I could think off. Oil pump casing, Camshaft front bearing, and anywhere else I could get it's probe onto. Frustratingly all quiet! But, without the stethoscope in my ears, there's the noise again, not loud, but definitely there! So I grabbed my listening tube and started slowly moving it around the front of the engine. Of course the engine has to be running so great care is needed around any moving component, especially belt drives.

Oh, there it is! The end of the tube is hovering around the area of the top camshaft pulley. Now that's strange, I've already checked all around here with the stethoscope and heard nothing. So I very carefully moved the end of the tube around looking for where the noise was loudest and after a few minutes it became obvious it was loudest when hovering over the cam pulley at around the 8 to 9 O'clock position. Then, moving the tube end very carefully, I established it's coming from where the belt's teeth engages with the teeth on the pulley. I spent some minutes hovering the end of the tube around this area and it's definitely where the belt meets the pulley that the noise is being created. It's perhaps relevant, that the noise is pretty much identical to the noise I was hearing when I first heard it at the dealer's. I tried blowing some powdered chalk into it - which is a good way of checking for a noisy "V" drive belt, like a fan belt for instance - but it made no difference. I did pop into the dealer just in case he could let me hear the Ka but, of course it had gone back to it's owner. He did say though that he's noticed this before, "some do it and others don't". I've spoken to other "trade people" I know and got the same story. I've also "amused" myself by listening to other vehicles with this F.I.R.E. engine whilst out on my daily walks and nitived some of them also doing it. You can hardly hear it unless the engine is running at low revs and by no means all of them do it, but I'd say I hear it at least once a week, especially at traffic lights, when I'm out walking around.

More than likely this isn't your noise, but might be worth bearing in mind. It led me a merry dance! By the way, the new belt was fitted just over 5 years ago so she's due another belt change right now and the noise has never changed. Although Gates is my favourite brand, I'm going to try a different brand when I do it. Maybe a Dayco as they make a big "thing" of the white colored tooth surface material they use? https://www.dayco.com/en/product/timing-belts/

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Another possible but not common to me fault would be if the impeller on the water pump was damaged.
Also when you are looking at the cambelt area check with engine off for any signs of water pump bearing failure, usually a small drip or coolant stain from the little drain hole at underneath waterpump.

Following on from my lengthy post above about belt noise, and by the way, overtensioning could be the problem with the earlier fixed tensioner type design - later engines, including my Panda - 2010 - used an "automatic" spring loaded tensioner which is not likely to over tension the belt.

But, all things considered, damaged water pump bearings are by far the most likely failure point in the timing belt drive train.

 

[bugsymike]

Although a lot more hassle the spring automatic tensioner if done correctly must certainly reduce the amount of over tightened cambelts in the past.
Where not automatic I liked to turn the engine a few times and even if possible, run it up and recheck how the belt felt and sounded.
Trouble is most work is on the stop watch these days, so good practice goes out the door.
By the way Jock the piece of rubber tube was most popular for balancing the twin carbs so many sports cars had in my youth, prior of course to the allegedly obligatory three figure roadtest.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Although a lot more hassle the spring automatic tensioner if done correctly must certainly reduce the amount of over tightened cambelts in the past.
Where not automatic I liked to turn the engine a few times and even if possible, run it up and recheck how the belt felt and sounded.
Trouble is most work is on the stop watch these days, so good practice goes out the door.
By the way Jock the piece of rubber tube was most popular for balancing the twin carbs so many sports cars had in my youth, prior of course to the allegedly obligatory three figure roadtest.

It used to be quite an amusement for me, sitting at the lights or in a traffic jam, listening to the cars around me for an overtight belt! Do you remember the Pinto tensioner which incorporated a spring which was supposed to tension the belt after fitting but was then tightened down to stop it moving in use? I never trusted it so just did my usual manual tightening procedure. Must say though I like automatic spring tensioners, they've made life so much easier.

Yes, I like to recheck a belt for tightness and runout after running the engine for a wee while after fitting a new belt. Have you noticed, when the tensioner is set up with the engine cold, how much the aligning pointers move when the engine is hot?

The constant pressure of the "black book" times and the foreman (who later on was me!) breathing down your neck, does nothing for a quality job. Hated working to bonus - in my opinion the biggest "wrecker" of quality work of them all.

Ah, balancing twin carbs. Thought of by some (for instance my pal who worked at a Ford garage) as magical witchery! With a constant stream of MG Midgets and Bs, Riley's, Mini Coopers, etc You quickly got used to doing it. We had a "proper" balancing tool but none of the "old hands" used it because it took far too long. Listening, with your tube, to the hiss as you moved the end of the tube from intake to intake became an almost daily activity as did adjusting the mixture - which on an SU could be quite an "art" if the needle had a bit of wear on it. I always longed to have a go at the triples on an "E" type but never got the chance.

 

[bugsymike]

We did have a pub landlord whose S type Jag had triple carbs, he offered to let me borrow it to "impress" a girl friend , but I suspect it was the thought of cheap repairs that interested him!
We had a customer with an MGC but I think that was on twin carbs, she always commented how much better the car went after the service, though my friend certainly knew how to clear the cobwebs out of the exhaust.
Did Ford make any multi carb cars for this Country?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

We did have a pub landlord whose S type Jag had triple carbs, he offered to let me borrow it to "impress" a girl friend , but I suspect it was the thought of cheap repairs that interested him!
We had a customer with an MGC but I think that was on twin carbs, she always commented how much better the car went after the service, though my friend certainly knew how to clear the cobwebs out of the exhaust.
Did Ford make any multi carb cars for this Country?

Always thought the original S type was a lovely looking car, must say I didn't know they were on triple carbs. My Dad nearly bought one but went with a MK10 instead.

Never worked on a C but one of our farmer customers had a V8. Too damned fast for the chassis in my opinion, but it did have a lovely exhaust note! I thought the Rootes group Sumbeam Tiger (Alpine with a Ford V8 in it) was a more attractive car though. We actually had one in the workshop once but the foreman thought it had been in an accident due to the look of the track rods. I later learnt that it was due to the rack being displaced forward to accommodate the size of the engine. How you'd do toe adjustment I don't know and I'm sure displacing the rack like that wouldn't have done much for the steering and suspension geometry - bump steer anyone?

Edit. PS Ford seems to have favored multi choke carbs? Webbers with progressive twin chokes seemed to be their default for more go - unless you count in the Lotus derivatives.

 

[bugsymike]

I always felt the MGC preferred going in a straight line due to the large lump of cast iron, when I was at college I was offered a Mk1 Jag with a 3.8 E type engine for £150 and nearly bought a Mk10 4.2 for £80 but instead bought the ratty 1964 MGB Roadster for £90 thinking it would be better on fuel, it might have been if I wasn't driving it The Jag I liked was the Mk9 after seeing an Auto version drop into gear when a mechanic was revving it, it rammed a Mk 1 Ford Cortina into a ramp and wrote it off (luckily a sales car) and all the damage to the Jag was an indicator lens and some Ford paint on it's bumper!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Think the C was intended to be a replacement for the big Healeys? Give me one of the Healeys every time but I definitely don't have the guts to try driving one quickly! Here's a very famous one: https://www.bonhams.com/auction/227...n-healey-3000-mki-works-rallymodsports-coupe/ Drool!

Have a wee salivate over this if you like:

That Mk1 3.8 E type would have been worth a bundle now, even if not in first rate condition. First Jag my old man owned was a MK1 2.4 - just like the one you see in Endeavour, it was a black one too. That was superseded by a Mk7. He and Mum went to France in it the year Jaguar won at Le Mans and were mobbed everywhere they went.

 

[bugsymike]

The Healey 3000 sounded good.
Sadly the Mk1 3.8 for £150 was a saloon but with the triple carbed 3.8 E Type engine fitted.
What I would love is a J2 Allard with the Cadillac V8 side valve engine in race trim, unlikely to happen on old age pension and the skill to race it would be even more unlikely.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Gates is my favourite brand

Daffo has a Gates belt done a few weeks back and is more or less silent from the whine point of view.

I agree with suspect radiator blockage suggestion or water pump as the most likely. Worth testing the temperature of the top and bottom hoses once the engine is warm also place a hand on the rad and see if it is uniform temperature. I have a Black and decker infra red thermometer which is great for identifying temperature differences if you could locate one and borrow it it would help.

I had never thought of the effect of decompression on the hot water in an engine, so a useful point.

I do wonder if the radiatot cap is doing its job as well. May be trying another would be a good idea,

 

[There all puntos]

My 98 R reg Punto used to whine like it had a supercharger on it. So I lubed the tensioner and the whining stopped. I replaced the tensioner with the belt for the Ohc. When I removed the old tensioner it fell to bits. So If you want, pull off the Ohc pully cover and see how hot the tensioner is, and how much life it has in it. I had a belt slip, some shedded belts. But luckily never bent any valves. Mostly because I changed them before they jumped or fell off on me.

Most of the fire engines I had, had been only checked for oil or water leaks by their previous owners when they got serviced, and as the cars surrounding them and the engine aged ( along with the owner) they got serviced less..I also had quite a few thermostats jam on, on fire engines fiats (mostly 8v Puntos) and they all had the dreaded light and no gauge and they always blew their top (and a couple of radiators and heater matrixes) so check all the water system.
PPS. I had a 91 J reg Ohc 903 Uno that used to drain the radiator overnight into the middle cylinders. I would start it up, the water would pump out the exhaust (it drank the stuff like a fish)
so no antifreeze was added. When I got around to doing the head gasket low and behold both the middle cylinders where clean but both cylinder walls were quite rusty. So I attached a wire brush to my battery drill and gave them all a quick swirley rust removal Got the Ohv head skimmed, replaced the valve seals, replaced the gasket with a genuine Fiat one tarted the Uno up. And sold it to a friend's sister. Who drove it into the ground five years later.

 

[RicardoS]

Daffo has a Gates belt done a few weeks back and is more or less silent from the whine point of view.

I agree with suspect radiator blockage suggestion or water pump as the most likely. Worth testing the temperature of the top and bottom hoses once the engine is warm also place a hand on the rad and see if it is uniform temperature. I have a Black and decker infra red thermometer which is great for identifying temperature differences if you could locate one and borrow it it would help.

I had never thought of the effect of decompression on the hot water in an engine, so a useful point.

I do wonder if the radiatot cap is doing its job as well. May be trying another would be a good idea,

The all the hoses get hot and so does the radiator. The heater matrix for the moment is bypassed has i dont know if its bad or not.

Tomorrow i gonna swap the cap with my TD to test and going to do a compression test.

Th eproblem is that the fan cant cool it down fast enough while driving on higher revs. On idle or in low revs the temp gauge goes to the middle and the fan kicks in and it cools down. On high revs the temp gauge goes to middle and fan kicks in but temp keeps going up.
This leeds me to belive that either the headgasket is bad but no smoke or bubles in radiator or there is a leek somewhere and creates a air lock and the pump cant give enough flow ot the pump is bad