Morning folks.

2009 Fiat Panda 1.1 Eco.


So been fiddling with my car. I've checked wires, cleaned connectors, sworn at it, and it seems to be running fairly okay now ... except ...


In 2nd gear, 20-30mph you put your foot down and its like its running lean so you just hit a wall. If I step on it in any other gear, at a similar speed, no problem. But 2nd gear, 20-30mpg like hitting a wall.


I also got a few low idle issues , like the car wants to die out (not too sure as I have no rev counter). So I've no idea what to check.


I'm thinking sticky idle control valve maybe. As the air box has been loose for a while (fixed it mind) so some gunk might of got in there. Also get occasional O2 sensor code come up but not had that for at least a couple weeks so no idea any more.


Anyone got suggestions on what to check or try?

max chat (panda1.1)in second is 30mph!
so your correct it won't go any faster...…..

09 johno said:

max chat (panda1.1)in second is 30mph!
so your correct it won't go any faster...…..

Click to expand...

I mean from 20-30 its just a wall. Gears are so tall in this thing it can't be top speed for it can it?

Hi Guys

Lets get this in context. the 970kg 1.1 eco is a 50hp euro5 spec i guess so it has the cheaper road tax. does it have a throttle cable or is it an early fly by wire type.

Tim

Ok so i'm an older type member, born in the 70's

what is 'laying over' ?

BigAdam said:

I mean from 20-30 its just a wall. Gears are so tall in this thing it can't be top speed for it can it?

Click to expand...

Mines a 2009 1.1, its not a race car and will never be first away from the lights.
2nd gear max 30mph
3rd gear 60mph
4th gear 75mph
5th gear 90 ish (not gone full chat)
but it will chug along quite happily at 30mph in 5th,

you may have a dirty throttle body that just needs a spray of cleaner (check the air filter is clean first)

timmycm850 said:

Hi Guys

Lets get this in context. the 970kg 1.1 eco is a 50hp euro5 spec i guess so it has the cheaper road tax. does it have a throttle cable or is it an early fly by wire type.

Tim

Click to expand...

Cable throttle.

09 johno said:

Mines a 2009 1.1, its not a race car and will never be first away from the lights.
2nd gear max 30mph
3rd gear 60mph
4th gear 75mph
5th gear 90 ish (not gone full chat)
but it will chug along quite happily at 30mph in 5th,

you may have a dirty throttle body that just needs a spray of cleaner (check the air filter is clean first)

Click to expand...

Alright, but its going from 20-30mph that I hit the wall and not every time. Also I tend to stick with 2nd till about 40mph, does this thing not have a rev limiter? I had a rev counter fitted for a bit and 40odd in 2nd isn't close to redline on that.


Its like when I had my mini, if it got too lean, then you'd have to yank the choke and away it went.

max rpm in any gear is only 5000rpm
however max torque is produced at 2750rpm and drops off from there
accelerating to max rpm is not good for the engine or the driveline in a low gear.
count the miles until your engine fails...…...

timmycm850 said:

Lets get this in context. the 970kg 1.1 eco is a 50hp euro5 spec

Click to expand...

Actually it's Euro4 in the 1.1 Active Eco.

The 1.1 engine was never produced in Euro5 form and was discontinued in 2010. Later Active Eco's (from the last batch of the 169 Pandas) use the 69HP 1.2 Euro5 units.

All 1.1's have a cable throttle.

A little bit of Panda history:

Both the 1.1 (active) and 1.2 (dynamic) Euro4 cars are £30 RFL. The 1.2 Eleganza isn't, because of its alloy wheels. Making the 119g/km cut with the Euro4 engine required the fitment of 13" steel wheels and 155 tyres.

With the introduction of the 69HP Euro5 engine, it was possible to fit alloys and still make the 119g/km cut, so the Euro5 1.2 dynamic has alloy wheels, in contrast to the steels on the Euro4 1.2 dynamic.

Despite the higher peak power of the Euro5 unit, the 60HP Euro4 engine is the best one to have; it actually makes more power below 3500rpm and gives a more flexible drive.

I drove both Euro4 cars back-to-back when they were still in current production. The 1.1 is a little underpowered for the Panda, and is both less economical (though not by much) and less flexible in traffic than the 1.2. Crucially for the dedicated ecodriver, the 1.2 will pull cleanly from about 25mph in 5th; making it possible to leave the car in top whilst driving through an urban 30mph speed limit zone. The 1.1 has you switching between 4th & 5th in typical 30mph zone traffic.

Neither is intended for, shall we say, spirited driving; they both have long gearing for economy. Try, and you'll likely be disappointed. Keep the revs down and use them as economical runabouts, and they'll reward you with the cheapest, most reliable motoring you can find.

In contrast, the 1.4 (100HP) is a hoot. It's more popular now than it was when new (Fiat struggled to sell the last of them and, back in the day, I was offered a new, unregistered one for £7499). It thrives on revs and was probably the most fun car you could have bought for the money at the time.

Hi All

We have a 1.2 2005 dynamic a/c and the tax is £130, its great torque band allows you to drive extremely economically and there is no need to rev, but it does rev to the limiter at 6500 revs. first gear is topping out at high 20's and 2nd tops around 40, but if i'm honest there is no point. its done 92k miles at about 7k a year and has always had oil changes every year. cam belts done regular and water pump every other cam belt.

back to the origins though, im not sure what would hold back a 1.1 in second gear only apart from a weakening fuel pump or maybe a minor split in a fuel pickup pipe letting in a tiny bit of air.

Tim

I return, WITH DATA! Glorious glorious data.


Headed down to the local ... closed race track ... and did some pulls.


Down the road, 1st to 20mph. 2nd to 40mph, then back to stop again.


Tried rolling into the run, tried running from stop.


Nothing was happening till about run 11



Last run, WHAM, hit the wall again. Even tho all previous runs where fine. Through 1st no problem then into second and wham.


My foot was smashed down on the pedal the whole time. I'm not lifiting, its a cable throttle not fly by wire.


Then the idle goes wacky on me too.





You can feel the car shudder as the idle falls way down then up then eventually settles at a nice 740-800rpm and smooths out. I tried giving it a little rev to see if it would settle, but it didn't I just had to wait.


So I'm not hitting the rev limit, it just decides to ... stop revving. You can see there is a pattern to it. I thought it might of been a sticky air idle valve but its too rhythmic you can see the pattern repeats in a similar way each time.

jrkitching said:

Despite the higher peak power of the Euro5 unit, the 60HP Euro4 engine is the best one to have; it actually makes more power below 3500rpm and gives a more flexible drive.
n contrast, the 1.4 (100HP) is a hoot. It's more popular now than it was when new (Fiat struggled to sell the last of them and, back in the day, I was offered a new, unregistered one for £7499). It thrives on revs and was probably the most fun car you could have bought for the money at the time.

Click to expand...

The 1.4 is definitely less economical than the 1.2 but it makes 60% (ish) more power so only to be expected. Around town, the 1.2 and 1.4 feel much the same. In fact the 1.2 feels more nippy below 30mph. However wind up the 1.4 and it really flies. I think it would be even better with a tubular manifold and underfloor catalyst.

Back to the OP.

The 1.1 has a known connector problem to the engine ECU. Pull it in tight with Zip ties and make sure the cable bundle is not being strained. Also check ignition coils.

DaveMcT said:

Back to the OP.

The 1.1 has a known connector problem to the engine ECU. Pull it in tight with Zip ties and make sure the cable bundle is not being strained. Also check ignition coils.

Click to expand...

I went through and cleaned a lot of connectors. I did unsheath a load of wire to have a look didn't find anything obviously broken/worn.


Cleaned the ECU ones and added some zip ties. I still on occasion get an O2 sensor warning. P0130 not seen it for a while tho.

How do I check the coils?

HI All

Interestingly it looks like the issue doesnt happen until its properly warmed up.

our 1.2 panda idle drops out similarly after about an hour on a journey. ive so far changed
5 x ht leads £18.00
4 x plugs to iridium £12.00
4 x injectors £28.00
cleaned out CAT £9.00 cleaner
cleaned now changed throttle body £82.00
both 02 sensors. £14.50 each

its still doing 70mpg according to the onboard computer

The coil packs are the next stop and they are due for arrival early this week as we recently had errors PO300 and PO304, i will fill you in on progress
It runs great but just drops out and seems to run on 3.5 cylinders at idle only.

Tim

Sudden drop outs are usually electrical. BUT the injectors are electrical so as ever its not black & white. Winding the engine to it's rev limit will show up ignition and electrical faults**.

Faulty coils will often throw up a string of injector errors and even a O2 sensor error. That's because the lambdas measure oxygen in exhaust. They don't measure hydrocarbons.
A misfire puts unburnt fuel and unused O2 down the exhaust.
Lambda sees the unused O2
ECU puts in more fuel (engine must be running weak - of course).
Sparks fire up again but engine is now running rich
Spark plugs get sooty increase the missfire.
Etc etc.

You can test coils by swapping them over. If the faulty cylinders change to the opposite pair you've found the fault. You can also resistance test them. However at £20 each you might as well change the pair. If one is failing the other will soon be doing the same.

** The long stroke 1100, is better kept in its mid range. If you really want to spin the engine to its upper reaches get a 100HP that thrives on revs.

Okay, going to order some coils but I also threw in some new spark plugs so I could do the maybe BS art of spark plug reading.


https://i.imgur.com/U018JD3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lMpB0At.jpg

Running a bit rich maybe and one plug was a bit cleaner than the rest, thats about all I got.


I also checked the resistance on the coil packs, both matched each other so they read fine but its £20 so I'll give it a crack.

Before you get the coils do a compression test. It's probably ok, but a head gasket leak often cleans the affected spark plugs.

We have FAULT CODES!

Its something, yay.




I have changed the ... pre-cat o2 sensor as I did have p0130 before, so should I take the one I pulled out and try replacing the post cat sensor or is this going to be a wiring issue?

No vacuumleaks?

gr J