Register Login
endrop - for all your online needs
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #76
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 3
Trader Rating: 0
Germany 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

new coupling valve is ordered!

Stay tuned ...
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

BlackForest is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 2 Weeks Ago   #77
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 104
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Quote Originally Posted by BlackForest View Post
new coupling valve is ordered!

Stay tuned ...
Still tuned; intrigued to know what happened?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Panda IIs is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #78
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Jersey, CI
Posts: 288
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Yes, me too
Quote Originally Posted by Panda IIs View Post
Still tuned; intrigued to know what happened?
__________________
2019 Panda Lounge 1.2 with loads of extras

Jerseywurzel is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #79
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 3
Trader Rating: 0
Germany 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

:-(

Did take a while - to no avail. What happened?

First I did replace the valve. Much the same behaviour. So it was not the valve.

General Problem: Could have measured that - if there where any points to tap into the circuit - into the circuit as it lives. But it is closed. So no way to measure the voltage from the valves mass to the battery as the valve is working. And the resistance, which could be measured if the valve is disconnected is hard to interpret if you don't know the resistance of the intended workers in the line. Remember 40Amp fuse with 12V we are talking about resistance near to nothing that counts. But how much nothing is worhtwhile an effect?

Then I went to the fiat dealer. Old story: "We have the best OBD, we can see what the others don't see, trust me". Well, they even couldn't see the errors the Multiecuscan reveils. And they can't log the behaviour while the car is running - no way to reproduce the fact. And they can't actuate the valves - probably for security reasons, as releasing the pressure on the brakes is something that can be dangerous if done in the wrong moment.

Well and then they did what they (we) all do: Without measuring anything they cleaned blindly the mass points. To no avail.

So I am left with the confirmation, that it is by design: You are not supposed to fix electric problems on modern consumer devices (such as cars). Where the computer can't overtake the burden of reasoning you should put the device in question into the disposal unit ...

Well you see me somewhat clueless and demotivated. But we will come back ;-)

Will have to invent something to measure from the coupling valve to the battery mass in vivio and ...

... to identify the fuses for the ABS and the Coupling ECU and ...

... to measure from the load side of these fuses to the batteries mass in comparison to what the ECUs see as the valves are operated and ...

... wether there is a (significant) voltage drop on the fuse(s).

My guess for now is, that both ECUs are on the same fuse. As far as I know, it is a 40Amp japanese fuse. No clue how to get this thing out to confirm it is the right one ...

Thx for your compassion!
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

BlackForest is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #80
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 23,888
Thanks: 882
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

I'm disappointed for you

A lot of effort.. and significant cost.. with no great improvement...

Charlie
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #81
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 3
Trader Rating: 0
Germany 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Just ordered a second hand ABS ECU and a ripped off connector. Will solder me an interface, so that I can measure ...
- ... from the ECU's mass (Pin 38 and 13) to the batterie mass and ...
- ... from the ECU's alimentation (Pin 1) to the batterie plus (resp. the fuse) ...
while actuating the valves.

This is not work, this is sports!
Likes johncard007, varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

BlackForest is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 3 Days Ago   #82
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 104
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Quote Originally Posted by BlackForest View Post
Just ordered a second hand ABS ECU and a ripped off connector. Will solder me an interface, so that I can measure ...
- ... from the ECU's mass (Pin 38 and 13) to the batterie mass and ...
- ... from the ECU's alimentation (Pin 1) to the batterie plus (resp. the fuse) ...
while actuating the valves.

This is not work, this is sports!
Hi There @BlackForest!

I have been following this thread with great interest and am impressed at your determination and enthusiasm for this "sport"!

I have a personal interest myself owning a 2013 4x4TA and having experienced similar symptoms to you (4x4 unavailable, warning lights..etc). I am also interested in your MultiECUscan diagnostics equipment and have a couple of questions which might cause you to reflect on the interpretation of the data you are reading with it.

My question centres around what frequency the MultiECUscan system samples at when you are using it "live" (I mean when the vehicle is running and especially when you are driving it)? I have attached a couple of your own images and highlighted the time stamp which I assume is in seconds?

If these are actual data points then I would suggest that the frequency of sampling is way too slow if compared to the frequency at which a typical engine management/body control computer in a modern car runs at (although I am happy to be corrected). If this is the case then there is a real risk that you not not capturing anything like the reality of what is occurring (is this referred to as aliasing?). I make this statement from a reasonably informed position having designed development test data acquisition hardware using programmable software. Again I don't know the capability of the MultiECU scan package but I had always thought of it as a diagnostic system for reading and resetting codes rather than an on-line data acquisition unit? Again happy to be corrected by those better informed. Certainly ECU/BCM hardware must run kHz frequencies I'm sure?

So my point? My point is that you may not be measuring what you think you are or the measurements may not relate the actual situation, witness the crazy abs wheel speed data (unless you were driving on two wheels?)

Finally I would refer you to my experiences (and earlier post) since this is what I know! I had all sorts of ABS ESC and 4WD messages until the brake light switch and battery voltage sensor were replaced (not scientific I know - changing two things at once) but normal 4x4 service was resumed, and I still don't know why!!

Good luck with your continued pursuit of this issue and do keep us informed of progress.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Eumultiscan.JPG
Views:	4
Size:	275.6 KB
ID:	210879   Click image for larger version

Name:	Eumultiscan2.JPG
Views:	4
Size:	460.3 KB
ID:	210880  

Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by Panda IIs; 3 Days Ago at 14:39. Reason: Typos - bah
Panda IIs is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 3 Days Ago   #83
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 23,888
Thanks: 882
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Im still amused /bemused that it had more than 1 part swapped.. which was the ACTUAL component at fault..?

However great to know it cured your issue..
And they are simple bolt on components

A cheap experiment compared to 4x4 kit


Updates eagerly anticipated



Thanks for studying the live data...
(On my phone this stuff is just too small)

I dug out my old MES to attempt tracing an electrical running issue on my Panda TA.. but fixed a 500 TA Instead..

Charlie
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 3 Days Ago   #84
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,418
Thanks: 255
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

The op has been inducing wheel spin on slippery surface in order to see if the 4x4 system operates. So one wheel near zero and the other spinning on sloppy surface likely to result in the observed wheel speeds.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

jackwhoo is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 3 Days Ago   #85
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 104
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
Im still amused /bemused that it had more than 1 part swapped.. which was the ACTUAL component at fault..?

However great to know it cured your issue..
And they are simple bolt on components

A cheap experiment compared to 4x4 kit


Updates eagerly anticipated



Thanks for studying the live data...
(On my phone this stuff is just too small)

I dug out my old MES to attempt tracing an electrical running issue on my Panda TA.. but fixed a 500 TA Instead..

Charlie
With a little further digging, bizarrely, it appears to have been the brake light switch that messes with the ABS ESC and 4x4 systems (at least the electronics/algorithms controlling these systems). The (so called) intelligent battery sensor, IBS, (voltage controller on -ve battery terminal) revived the Stop Start (not something I was fussed about).

The diagnosis of the IBS came about as I was also reporting a repeating drained battery, the actual issue is, I think, a failed Blue & Me unit which doesn't realise that the car is locked and fails to shut down, but this, as they say, is another story!

There are other threads on here that have connected a dodgy brake light switch with ABS, ESC etc warning light issues but I haven't yet read a plausible reason, and for the record my brake lights were still working! It's worth pointing out that none of the warning occurred until the first touch of the brakes following start up, i.e. turning off and on reset the system - nothing like a good reboot!!

The system is quite creative in its use of data from sensors such as the ABS system, somewhere else on here someone describes the tyre pressure sensing which actually uses different wheel speeds (deflated tyre rotates at different speed) and therefore triggers a faulty tyre pressure. I indirectly experienced this ('63 model without tyre pressure "sensing") where my daughter drove a few miles home with a total flat (4x4 will pull you through anything!) and she reported that the car had a 4x4 and ESC warning!!

I dooo realise that not all of this experience relates to the OP, but I'm trying to point out that maybe things are not always what they seem...

Especially when it comes to Italian car electrics/electronics!
Likes The Panda Nut, varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Panda IIs is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 2 Days Ago   #86
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North Herts
Posts: 2,396
Thanks: 341
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

I believe there are effectively two switches in the brake light switch. One that operates ‘normally’ and turns the brake lights in when the pedal is pressed, but the other is ‘on’ when the pedal is fully up to report that the pedal has returned. Another post somewhere here suggested the loss of the ‘returned to up’ signal led to the errors being shown.
Likes Panda IIs, varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Herts Hillhopper is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 2 Days Ago   #87
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Alkmaar, Netherlands
Posts: 1,735
Thanks: 90
Trader Rating: 0
Netherlands 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?


And not just on Fiat's (or other Italian cars).

gr J
__________________
"Look for the ridiculous in everything and you will find it". - Jules Renard
A3jeroen is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 2 Days Ago   #88
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 104
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Quote Originally Posted by Herts Hillhopper View Post
I believe there are effectively two switches in the brake light switch. One that operates ‘normally’ and turns the brake lights in when the pedal is pressed, but the other is ‘on’ when the pedal is fully up to report that the pedal has returned. Another post somewhere here suggested the loss of the ‘returned to up’ signal led to the errors being shown.
Thank you! Now that starts to make more sense; what havoc a £12.00 part can cause!
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Panda IIs is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Day Ago   #89
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 3
Trader Rating: 0
Germany 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Well guys,

thx for all the input. Everything reasonable. Will have to reflect all of your input.

Only loosely related to this thread some age old experience of mine: Begining 80th we made an business simulation at the university. Among quite a few of parameters there was one, which was documented at "not used" and it was named something like "other expenses". For the sake of fun, I did order there a "box of champaign". Expected behaviour was: None. In reality, the whole algorithm went havoc and none of the restrictions like "storage capacity", "max production capacity" and the like was checked anymore and we won the game.

Long story short: With computers and your spouse (in pre-PC days I would have written: women) never assume anything.

BOT: Earnestly considering as a plan B to replace the mentioned parts, even so it would mean to surrender intellectually. The winner ...

Thx so far!
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

BlackForest is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 23 Hours Ago   #90
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 104
Thanks: 9
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: 4x4 AWD not available / What might be the cause?

Quote Originally Posted by BlackForest View Post
Well guys,

thx for all the input. Everything reasonable. Will have to reflect all of your input.

BOT: Earnestly considering as a plan B to replace the mentioned parts, even so it would mean to surrender intellectually. The winner ...

Thx so far!
Give the brake light switch a go, there seems to be a common theme?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Panda IIs is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(G) 2.4L AWD maximum tow? Geolith 500X 21 30-01-2018 13:11
(T) fiat punto 188 AWD idea aFiFi Punto (Mk2/2b) 6 16-05-2017 20:19
(T) A AWD Stilo? Barcellos Stilo 11 09-07-2015 13:17