gloomyandy said:

Hmm personally my guess is that my 2019 4x4 cross is 85HP not 90HP, my manual has no mention of a 90HP engine, the VIN plate number seems to be for a 85HP model and the V5 indicates 85HP. The only concrete reference I have to a 90HP model is that the sales documents talk about a "cross 4x4 90".

Does anyone have a 2018/2019 cross that has either a manual or a VIN plate that indicates that it is a 90HP model?

I can't find a snapshot of the fiat web pages when they advertised it as 90HP, does anyone have any screenshots? I wonder what the "specifications" section of the site claimed for the power output when the headline said 90? I notice that the current website states 85HP.

My bet is that there was "confusion" or a "mistake" in the advertising of this model (post new emissions tests) and that they have all been 85hp. But who knows. I'd certainly like to get a definitive answer. But I'm not sure what redress if any I might have as my cross was "2nd hand" being a pre-reg model (with 5miles on the clock), not new.

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Yes a rack of them all. saying 90PS. Oh and mine says its the 2000 engine not the 7000. I want them to put 90HP in writing then we know its fraud not a mistake. The last verbal response from Italy is that it is DEFINITELY 90 not 85.

Interestingly deceit in relation to WLTP testing has been an instant reaction by a number of people I have raised it with.

Screenshot - 1 of many. It would appear that someone was taking the p** on a grand scale. Not only that but failing to take ownership of a mistake or dealing with it in a sensible manner. Subsequently covering up the mistake, but, locking the gate after the hose bolted. This page now says Panda waze. No mention of the 90HP shown on all the paperwork.

What is wrong with a simple apology and explanation?

This matter will now take its course.

The Panda Nut said:

...
This matter will now take its course.

Click to expand...

Good luck there (seriously). What was stated on the order form for your car? - as that is what was ordered, what was paid for and so what they should have made for you (if I remember right, your order was pretty specific). What is shown anywhere else - now, or back then - there will be a 'get out clause' along the lines of 'specification subject to change' in the small print somewhere, including, but not limited to, the disclaimer on the website, which reads: (I've made part of it bold)


"We provide this website on an 'as is' basis and make no representations or warranties of any kind with respect to this website or its contents and disclaims all such representations and warranties. In addition, we make no representations or warranties about the accuracy, completeness, or suitability for any purpose of the information and related graphics published in this site. The information contained in this website may be out of date at the time you view it or contain technical inaccuracies or typographical errors and we are under no obligation to update the information although we aim to do so. All our liability howsoever arising for any such inaccuracies or errors is expressly excluded to the fullest extent permitted by law and subject to condition 9 below."

And, at para 12:
"Products offered for sale may differ from those described or illustrated on this website due to later production changes in specification, components or place of manufacture. The contents of this website are therefore not to be treated as representation as to the current availability of products or services as described or as to products actually offered for sale."

(from here: https://www.fiat.co.uk/legal - paragraph 7)

Fiat customer services rang recently from Italy. Very kingd...

They have corrected the Panda Waze configurator. Hooray.

It now says the waze has 185 tyres, which it does'nt and has wait for it.... 90PS.


or 62kw.......


I think we have gone full circle. I have written to my dealer asking for proper written confirmation of what I actually have. They are a member of the Motor Trades Ombudsman scheme which I will use to formalise the complaint should the dealer not be able to answer.

I want to know what engine for spare parts, tax, emissions, insurance etc as well as sheer curiosity. I find it rather odd that anyone would not want to know these things, but may be this is just me. If my car were to be written off and either the car insurance or my GAP insurance were to need to replace it, I think its a necessity to know so like for like can be provided??

I have decided to ask the dealer principle for a meeting to gauge his attitude and to discuss the time needed to get a proper answer.

There is so much stuff on the internet from FIAT saying the Waze is 90HP I cannot think it is not.

If it transpires the advertising is wrong I am going to the Advertising Standards Agency and they can ensure FIAT sort out the plethora of current and out of date versions of the webs site and all the erroneous references in the motoring press.

I will give the dealer full measure of time to answer the question before taking further action, so it will be another 3 weeks before stage 1 of the complaints process is reached, and I may then suggest a meeting with FIAT UK before going further to seek an answer.

I don't want to return the car under Sale of goods Act and Trades Descriptions Legislation, so that is currently in their favour. I have however started looking again at Suzuki's website so I don't rule it out altogether.

I am not certain that a dynamometer test would be conclusive, so am holding off that for the time being. I feel that I cannot drive the car anymore in case it ends up being returned to the seller which is irritating though. - more so as the 169 is off the road since my mower (i think) chucked a stone through the rear screen at the weekend.... New screen should be fitted on Thursday so relatively short wait. Its a good thing they all live in the Panda House or this weather would be causing havoc! It was very notiecable how thin the rear screen glass is, half of a toughened windscreen at most. Tomorrows job is to strip the tailgate and get the glass all out which is a royal pain. I will take the opportunity to remove and clean the errant boot handle. The lock switch works, but the open one is sticky so often it won'y open even when unlocked. The plip opens it for now but its a nuisance too. Wish me luck with this one.

Yep the FIAT website is a mess. The cross 4x4 "car configurator" shows max power of 90hp or 62.5KW!

The "learn more" specification section currently shows a max power of 85hp or 66.2KW! :bang: Neither now mention either 85 or 90 in the "headline name".

I'll be very interested to see how you get on. I'd probably be doing the same as you had I bought a new car, but as mine was a pre-reg model I don't think I have as strong a case.

I'd really like to know if anyone has a 2019 model that has an engine number that specifies the 90hp model (or a handbook that even mentions one). Personally I think that all of the models post the new emissions tests will be 85hp. But who knows!

Good afternoon Panderers.


For anyone who boughtaa Panda Waze 4x4 90PS, who actually, lke me wanted a 90HP and not an 85HP model I have news.

The assertion on here by Herts Hill Hopper (I believe) regarding the VIN plate number IS correct. I therefore have an 85HP car not 90 as stated on ALL my dealer paperwork.

I believe the dealer is totally straight and was misled by Fiat UK, they have made all the right noises apart from an apology with the final information.

I have accordingly been in touch with the Advertising Standards Agency and National Citizens advice.

My assertion regarding the advertising material is its a deliberate deceit by Fiat who have failed to act or take any notice of my requests for them to correct the bad information. The reasons for this are unclear. But its nearly 6 months since the matter was raised with them.

Unfortunately my case is against a good garage that I like but may be unable to do business with in future due to Fiats stupidity.

The Citizens advice are now going to consider the facts but have said anyone else affected should get in touch with them so they can confirm my statement that this matter affects many people.

My rights have been explained and if pushed to the limit it would be very expensive for my Dealer.

I have a template letter and advice on the law that seems clearly to have been breached.

Anyone wanting the case number contact details to follow this up please feel free to PM me. I have already fired the shot at my dealer asking how they would feel if I asked for a refund! I really don't want this as the car is OK, just not as described and not as per the contracted agreement at point of sale.

I am now waiting to see what the dealer says before taking further action, and I am awaiting a call from Fiat customer service management in Italy.

I am not going to go any further on here except via the pm system, but will let you know if I am satisfied with the outcome in the end.

The Panda Nut said:

Good afternoon Panderers.


For anyone who boughtaa Panda Waze 4x4 90PS, who actually, lke me wanted a 90HP and not an 85HP model I have news.

The assertion on here by Herts Hill Hopper (I believe) regarding the VIN plate number IS correct. I therefore have an 85HP car not 90 as stated on ALL my dealer paperwork...

Click to expand...

Part of the issue here is the 'hybrid' specs of the Waze models.
When Fiat fitted the TA to any Panda, except the 'real' 4x4 Cross, it was always 85HP. Part of the 'uplift' to justify the 4x4 Cross costing £1600 more than the equally capable offroad 'regular' 4x4TA was an increase of 5HP (to 90HP in the TA, and 95HP for the diesel - compared to 90HP in the normal 4x4MJ)... along with climate control, 2 more airbags and a fancy copper-coloured dash.

So far as I can tell, the Waze (and other 'badged' Cross specials, City Cross, etc) have not had the full Cross kit, and not had the 'reserved for the Cross' more powerful engine either. But you can (perhaps) see why the marketing team didn't know the difference because the choices were complex (and, different in different European markets too). And then, more recently (and I suspect after the WLTp tests in September 2018), even the real Cross TA was dropped down to 85HP (along with being fitted with narrower, summer tyres), to try to give a better (but still rather disappointing) mpg and emissions figure.

However, to confuse things, in the regular 4x4 the last of the diesels were all 95HP ... not just the Cross version.

I believe the 5HP increase is entirely done in the ECU? No sign of any different parts in the online parts catalogues.... so maybe that's the action you should seek Fiat to take - to tweak the power to 90HP via the ECU?

Herts Hillhopper said:

And then, more recently (and I suspect after the WLTp tests in September 2018), even the real Cross TA was dropped down to 85HP (along with being fitted with narrower, summer tyres), to try to give a better (but still rather disappointing) mpg and emissions figure.

Click to expand...

I've just checked my 2019 4x4 cross and it has Goodyear vector 4 seasons gen 2 M+S 185/65 tyres on it (which I wouldn't say was a summer tyre), have some cars been fitted with something else?

gloomyandy said:

I've just checked my 2019 4x4 cross and it has Goodyear vector 4 seasons gen 2 M+S 185/65 tyres on it (which I wouldn't say was a summer tyre), have some cars been fitted with something else?

Click to expand...

This spec seems to keep changing back and forth. In the July 2019 price list, and until very recently in the online configurator, it clearly said 'summer tyres'.

But, I've just run the configurator again and, although it doesn't mention tyres at all(!) in the summary PDF it chucks out, that does now list 185/65R15 M+S tyres again. I wonder if it is dependent on the availability of winter/all season tyres? (If you've ever tried replacing them, you'll know that at certain times of year they are harder to get hold of...)
The Panda Nut's Waze 4x4 was delivered with summer, 175 tyres and I think someone else here mentioned theirs too came with summer tyres.

I think the 90HP engine has NOT been fitted to any Pandas for some time possibly May / June 18. When re-testing for engines was required by the EU to introduce the WLTP fuel consumption figures the queue for testing meant someone had to wait. The 85 was tested and the 90 not so cannot be used until done.

I am told that the misquote on the web site was an "error". After being told a few weeks ago my car was 85HP and then about two weeks ago it was 90, I finally snapped and decided to take some action. The "error" explanation stands, but does not wash with me as the Waze was launched in a hail of glory and announced in a press release as 90HP. Showers of 90HP adverts appeared of which I have many copies! My car came from the factory with a full set of 90hp paperwork. Its not 90 its 85.

Anyway I had conversations with legal advisors, and enforcement agencies, and took advice on my position.

My dealer Desira in Norwich were an innocent party in this issue, but legally liable to resolve it. We have discussed the issue and in conjunction with Fiat customer services and agreed a satisfactory outcome as far as I am concerned. I have achieved
a satisfactory outcome as I did not really want to return the car and go for compensation for costs. Providing this is delivered as agreed, while disappointed I have not got the 90 engine I wanted, I am satisfied with the agreed outcome as a fair and reasonable settlement. It shows that there is some customer care there after all.

I understand Fiat have tried to clean up their web site but it reverted after a while.... Desira said they checked the web site this morning and all reference to any Pandas and a 90HP engine have been deleted. Dealers will be told if they have not already to do the same.

I have taken steps to ensure that Fiat will be asked to explain how this situation occurred by the relevant agency.

I have also said VERY loudly to Fiat that I think they should be writing to all the affected owners so that each can consider their position.

If this was the result of an error, I wonder why the introduction of the Waze 4x4 was accompanied with a press release about the 90HP Waze, and why the entire motoring press are clearly under the impression that Waze is 90HP. Also why the 'my Fiat' web site said my car was 90 HP when I registered it on there, and now mysteriously this reference has been deleted.

Its a shame that this matter was not sorted until I quoted the VIN number information from her, (thanks again) and pointed out that my car was not as described. Overall I am very pleased with how my dealer has acted and for their support and hope that Fiat will do as asked as part of my settlement to ensure Panda owners affected will be informed of the problem relating to the "unfortunate web site error".

Were I the owner of a late 2018, or 2019 Panda Cross I would be checking my VIN number against my expectation of engine power output.

Herts Hillhopper said:

This spec seems to keep changing back and forth. In the July 2019 price list, and until very recently in the online configurator, it clearly said 'summer tyres'.

But, I've just run the configurator again and, although it doesn't mention tyres at all(!) in the summary PDF it chucks out, that does now list 185/65R15 M+S tyres again. I wonder if it is dependent on the availability of winter/all season tyres? (If you've ever tried replacing them, you'll know that at certain times of year they are harder to get hold of...)
The Panda Nut's Waze 4x4 was delivered with summer, 175 tyres and I think someone else here mentioned theirs too came with summer tyres.

Click to expand...

The Waze runs on 175/65 x15 summer tyres. This is unlikely to change as this was clearly done before the WLTP test and would require a retest.....

My tyre man said there were 11 Continental M+S tyres around a week ago. Now I have a set of new alloy wheels for summer I will be taking 4 of these for immediate use. If the cost is silly I may default to an alternative, but you get what you pay for and these are very good tyres. If the configurator and advertising nonsense had not said the Waze ran on 185 tyres I wouldn't have sold the two new 175's I had in stock! More money wasted due to "the unfortunate error". The configurator at least now says the 4x4 has disc brakes not drums, and the q-tronic paddles should also have been removed, but its about as much use as a fart in a force 9 gale for anything other than a colour chart! I repeated my offer to correct the garbage on this thing free of charge. It needs to be checked by someone who is interested in Pandas more than computer programming I think.

I am not sure I am strong enough to go through any more of this in the future. It may just be easier to buy from a more organised company that has at least 1 person who knows what the products are! Its a damned good think I still love the car to bits.

gloomyandy said:

I've just checked my 2019 4x4 cross and it has Goodyear vector 4 seasons gen 2 M+S 185/65 tyres on it (which I wouldn't say was a summer tyre), have some cars been fitted with something else?

Click to expand...

The Panda Cross does as you say come on these winter tyres which give it the slight increase in ground clearance The wheels look more sturdy tha the standard 4x4 too.

Reports show the Goodyear vector to be a quality tyre but may be a fraction more road biased than the conti on the standard 4x4. I shall consider these my mine if I cant get the contis at a sensible price.

I think the 90HP engine has NOT been fitted to any Pandas for some time possibly May / June 18. When re-testing for engines was required by the EU to introduce the WLTP fuel consumption figures the queue for testing meant someone had to wait. The 85 was tested and the 90 not, so cannot be sold until done.

I am told that the misquote on the web site was an "error". After being told a few weeks ago my car was 85HP and then about two weeks ago it was 90, I finally snapped and decided to take some action. The "error" explanation stands, but does not wash with me as the Waze was launched in a hail of glory and announced in a press release as 90HP. Showers of 90HP adverts appeared of which I have many copies! My car came from the factory with a full set of 90hp paperwork. Its not 90 its 85.

Anyway I had conversations with legal advisors, and enforcement agencies, and took advice on my position.

My dealer Desira in Norwich were an innocent party in this issue, but legally liable to resolve it. We have discussed the issue and in conjunction with Fiat customer services and agreed a satisfactory outcome as far as I am concerned. I have achieved
a satisfactory outcome as I did not really want to return the car and go for compensation for costs. Providing this is delivered as agreed, while disappointed I have not got the 90 engine I wanted, I am satisfied with the agreed outcome as a fair and reasonable settlement. It shows that there is some customer care there after all.

I understand Fiat have tried to clean up their web site but it reverted after a while.... Desira said they checked the web site this morning and all reference to any Pandas and a 90HP engine have been deleted. Dealers will be told if they have not already to do the same.

I have taken steps to ensure that Fiat will be asked to explain how this situation occurred by the relevant agency.

I have also said VERY loudly to Fiat that I think they should be writing to all the affected owners so that each can consider their position.

If this was the result of an error, I wonder why the introduction of the Waze 4x4 was accompanied with a press release about the 90HP Waze, and why the entire motoring press are clearly under the impression that Waze is 90HP. Also why the 'my Fiat' web site said my car was 90 HP when I registered it on there, and now mysteriously this reference has been deleted.

Its a shame that this matter was not sorted until I quoted the VIN number information from her, (thanks again) and pointed out that my car was not as described. Overall I am very pleased with how my dealer has acted and for their support and hope that Fiat will do as asked as part of my settlement to ensure Panda owners affected will be informed of the problem relating to the "unfortunate web site error".

Were I the owner of a late 2018, or 2019 Panda Cross I would be checking my VIN number against my expectation of engine power output.

So pleased you posted it twice but glad that perseverance has got you somewhere in the end. Given that elsewhere you have said how well your new Panda goes compared to previous ones, now you can go and enjoy it more fully.

By the way, assume ‘her’ here is ‘Herts’?... “ Its a shame that this matter was not sorted until I quoted the VIN number information from her, (thanks again)”... It’s too easy to make mistakes online (he says, ducking very quickly )

Herts Hillhopper said:

So pleased you posted it twice but glad that perseverance has got you somewhere in the end. Given that elsewhere you have said how well your new Panda goes compared to previous ones, now you can go and enjoy it more fully.

By the way, assume ‘her’ here is ‘Herts’?... “ Its a shame that this matter was not sorted until I quoted the VIN number information from her, (thanks again)”... It’s too easy to make mistakes online (he says, ducking very quickly )

Click to expand...

Hands like shovels and over dose of Adrenalin from this morning. I type so much wrong its untrue.

I think asking the garage how would they feel if I gave the car back may also have focused the minds too. I am a fair bit better off than before too. Thanks for that info. I hope others will follow suit and make a stand. ASA will look at this if I give the slightest push or if anyone else complains, If I don't push before Monday they will drop it. I could have gone for a refund or replacement and apparently could have insisted on an engine upgrade. Its all very odd indeed. My dealer had all the required paperwork to request a change to the V5 to correct the power to 90... I will have to return the amended V5 for down rating again once received as they had submitted the necessary paperwork from Fiat!. Make what you will of that but it sounds a great deal less than straight to me. Its this that will be reported to the ASA to give the final push to say go ahead and investigate.

It seems that there may have been no 90hp twin airs produced for quite some time.

If there is any messing about the car will be going back and I will totally let rip on every conceivable front. As I have only done 3500 miles there is little point going down this road just to get another one the same. I hope they do the decent thing and tell all affected owners what has been going on. Ultimately I am not sure they know!

Thanks again for the most useful information.

Ha Ha Ha HA I think that's Fiat laughing at you. All the way to their bank.

They are ALL 85 NOT 90 and never will be either.

I'm the only one to notice apparently. They don't appear much bothered but have given me a set of alloy wheels in compensation. No apology or explanation offerred. As I told them day 1 of negotiations bothe apology from the head of Fiat and expalnation were required to close the matter out.

The sum total of the fiddle - sorry - web site error....... must be worth around £1.5 million to them at £1000 a car

If you have been done too, take it up with them and ask for at least £1000 back. You have the right to either the goods you paid for or your money back. If you contact trading standards via citizens advice they may well be looking at this too. The more times they are involved them more likely we are to find out why this mistake started and went on so long. Fiat tell me the explanation is an internal matter. Fiat are showing few signs of getting rid of the deceptive adverts from dealer sites in spite of having been made aware of the issue 6 months back. Lings Lynn Fiat - for example only- are today still advertising the Waze incorrectly as 90HP.

Fiat have clearly told DVLA its 90HP and still stated the power at 62kW which is incorrect.

I understand they intend to deal with this on a case by case basis.

GET CLAIMING.

Check your PANDA CROSS models too as I understand they masy not have been 90 since about MAY 2018.

PS It has 4 seats not five and 175 wheels and tyres. The wheels are steel and NOT alloy.

Hi PandaNut
Bought a new Panda cross 4x4 90hp a couple of weeks ago after having had a normal 4x4 for about 5 years and really liked it. Have just found the fiat forum and have been following your posts with interest. My order form states that the car is 90 BHP and I had specified on the order form that I specifically wanted M&S tyres as per the website. Car currently has 175 summer tyres. Had looked at Panda crosses on the forecourt and noted that they had a wide range of different tyres so wanted to make sure. Have just checked the details in the boot and it suggests it is an 85 bhp engine,( 2000, not the 7000 ). V5C shows 62kw. Spoke to the dealer when collecting the car about the tyre problem and they have contacted Fiat who it seems have agreed to supply M&S tyres, not sure of size, so waiting for them to appear and be changed. I like the dealership but am not happy with Fiat, bought the car specifically because thought it had a little extra power and the full off-road/slippy road abilities. Have not spoken to dealer about engine and suspect they do not know. Am unsure what to do next, please could you advise. Am happy to complain, feel that Fiat have been somewhat negligent and misleading in describing what people may be buying.
Thanks for any help you can provide, is there any progress with your situation.

The Panda Nut said:

Ha Ha Ha HA I think that's Fiat laughing at you. All the way to their bank.

They are ALL 85 NOT 90 and never will be either.

I'm the only one to notice apparently. They don't appear much bothered but have given me a set of alloy wheels in compensation. No apology or explanation offerred. As I told them day 1 of negotiations bothe apology from the head of Fiat and expalnation were required to close the matter out.

The sum total of the fiddle - sorry - web site error....... must be worth around £1.5 million to them at £1000 a car

If you have been done too, take it up with them and ask for at least £1000 back. You have the right to either the goods you paid for or your money back. If you contact trading standards via citizens advice they may well be looking at this too. The more times they are involved them more likely we are to find out why this mistake started and went on so long. Fiat tell me the explanation is an internal matter. Fiat are showing few signs of getting rid of the deceptive adverts from dealer sites in spite of having been made aware of the issue 6 months back. Lings Lynn Fiat - for example only- are today still advertising the Waze incorrectly as 90HP.

Fiat have clearly told DVLA its 90HP and still stated the power at 62kW which is incorrect.

I understand they intend to deal with this on a case by case basis.

GET CLAIMING.

Check your PANDA CROSS models too as I understand they masy not have been 90 since about MAY 2018.

PS It has 4 seats not five and 175 wheels and tyres. The wheels are steel and NOT alloy.

Click to expand...

£1k for the tho difference?

gloomyandy said:

I've just checked my 2019 4x4 cross and it has Goodyear vector 4 seasons gen 2 M+S 185/65 tyres on it (which I wouldn't say was a summer tyre), have some cars been fitted with something else?

Click to expand...

There is a new Cross 4x4 on AutoTrader with Goodyear Durarips 175/65s. I think these are ordinary summer tyres.

Hi. My new Panda cross bought November 2019 has Goodyear duragrips, 175x65 which are summer tyres in spite of specifically asking for M&S tyres as per the website, also 85bhp engine. Does anyone understand what Fiat are doing.