all on bbc4 at 10pm tonight
Lancia Delta S4 Peugeot 205 T16, Ford RS200, Audi Quattro, MG Metro 6R4
- Thread starter dave
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Lancia Delta S4 Peugeot 205 T16, Ford RS200, Audi Quattro, MG Metro 6R4
only moments to go! so glad there's something decent on tv for a change 
Although these cars, arguably, marked the technological zenith of rally car development, they also marked the point at which I started to lose interest in the sport.
I certainly remember the Delta Integrales, Quattro Coupes, Escorts, Sunbeams and Chevettes steaming through the Forest of Dean, or the grounds of Haig Hall or screaming round Oulton Park. But, in between these there were the privateers running all of the above plus Porsche 911s Vauxhall Magnums, FIAT 131s, Capris. There were also the not so well known "Works" teams such as Dealer Opel Team and the Skoda and Lada official teams. Mixed in with all of those were the likes of the Datsun 240Zs with "Fiddlers for Fish" proudly emblazoned along the sides.
One of the reasons behind the popularity of rallying in this country was the fact that young (and some not so young) men could make their cars look and sound like those of their heroes. The car parks were full of Mk1 Escorts with 4 Hella spot lights or my own Chevette HS2300 with 4 Cibies. Some were bog standard apart from wheels, tyres, lights and paint.....and the de rigeur Peco big bore exhaust; others, like mine, had considerably more which, while I had no desire to hurtle through forests, certainly created a very rapid road car.
The Mk1 & 2 Escorts, the Chevettes, Sunbeams, Cortinas, Minis, not to mention the odd 128 were the cars we drove and the Delta Integrales and Audi Coupes were the ones we aspired to and hoped that as our jobs and income improved we might be able to, some day, put one on the drive.
When the likes of the Delta S4, the 205 T16 et al hit the market they were out of reach. If memory serves, the new short Audi (Sport?) cost something like that of a Ferrari 328 and with the exception of the RS200 were available over here in such small numbers that they were expected to disappear behind the garages of those who only wished to keep them wrapped up until the time came to auction them off for a large premium.
Many people, me included, considered that these cars were really a step too far as they effectively became F1 cars with roofs.
You could actually go into almost any Ford dealer and leave with a RS1800 or Mexico. You could visit your local Vauxhall agent and order a HS2300. The same was true of the Sunbeam as well and there were plenty of specialists who could carry out the work. But a Delta S4?
I know this puts me into Grumpy Old Man territory but just like Touring Cars I really do think they should bear much more than a passing likeness to the production cars in the showroom, in as much as the shell should be steel with only panels (bonnet, boot and door skins) being of a lightweight material. If the production cars have a manual 'box so should the rally car. If the production car has a 1.4 litre engine then the rally car should also have one, that way, as there always used to be, there will be a definite link between the showroom and the sport.
I certainly remember the Delta Integrales, Quattro Coupes, Escorts, Sunbeams and Chevettes steaming through the Forest of Dean, or the grounds of Haig Hall or screaming round Oulton Park. But, in between these there were the privateers running all of the above plus Porsche 911s Vauxhall Magnums, FIAT 131s, Capris. There were also the not so well known "Works" teams such as Dealer Opel Team and the Skoda and Lada official teams. Mixed in with all of those were the likes of the Datsun 240Zs with "Fiddlers for Fish" proudly emblazoned along the sides.
One of the reasons behind the popularity of rallying in this country was the fact that young (and some not so young) men could make their cars look and sound like those of their heroes. The car parks were full of Mk1 Escorts with 4 Hella spot lights or my own Chevette HS2300 with 4 Cibies. Some were bog standard apart from wheels, tyres, lights and paint.....and the de rigeur Peco big bore exhaust; others, like mine, had considerably more which, while I had no desire to hurtle through forests, certainly created a very rapid road car.
The Mk1 & 2 Escorts, the Chevettes, Sunbeams, Cortinas, Minis, not to mention the odd 128 were the cars we drove and the Delta Integrales and Audi Coupes were the ones we aspired to and hoped that as our jobs and income improved we might be able to, some day, put one on the drive.
When the likes of the Delta S4, the 205 T16 et al hit the market they were out of reach. If memory serves, the new short Audi (Sport?) cost something like that of a Ferrari 328 and with the exception of the RS200 were available over here in such small numbers that they were expected to disappear behind the garages of those who only wished to keep them wrapped up until the time came to auction them off for a large premium.
Many people, me included, considered that these cars were really a step too far as they effectively became F1 cars with roofs.
You could actually go into almost any Ford dealer and leave with a RS1800 or Mexico. You could visit your local Vauxhall agent and order a HS2300. The same was true of the Sunbeam as well and there were plenty of specialists who could carry out the work. But a Delta S4?
I know this puts me into Grumpy Old Man territory but just like Touring Cars I really do think they should bear much more than a passing likeness to the production cars in the showroom, in as much as the shell should be steel with only panels (bonnet, boot and door skins) being of a lightweight material. If the production cars have a manual 'box so should the rally car. If the production car has a 1.4 litre engine then the rally car should also have one, that way, as there always used to be, there will be a definite link between the showroom and the sport.
Ah The Beard, it's good to see a PROPER rallying fan on here I am too young to know anything before the group A days so sadly I can't appreciate things before in the same way you do. To me the golden years are the days when Lancia and Toyota used to fight it out and also 2000-2003 or so when the WRCar era was at it's peak.
As my name suggests I am a fan of Peugeot and supported their WRC efforts as well as those of Citroen.
The coverage these days is sadly rather dire and is more or less unwatchable
I am too young to know anything before the group A days so sadly I can't appreciate things before in the same way you do. To me the golden years are the days when Lancia and Toyota used to fight it out and also 2000-2003 or so when the WRCar era was at it's peak. As my name suggests I am a fan of Peugeot and supported their WRC efforts as well as those of Citroen.
The coverage these days is sadly rather dire and is more or less unwatchable
Not sure how up on current touring car rules you are but next gen touring cars are required to be mechanically identical to each other in most ways. Apparently this is to keep unit costs down and competition close. So rather than one manufacturer building say 10 engines a year for its 2 cars you effectively have an outside contractor mass producing sealed units for the whole field at a lower per unit cost.
I understand what you are saying about cars following the spec of the road car but that tends to lead down the road of a single make dominating as there standard spec is best for the rules until another manufacturer joins in with a car designed to be more competitive and so on and so forth.
Peugeot have indeed had an illustrious history in rallying and although many people think of the 205 GTI as being the start of their rally story I think it can be traced back to the early and mid '60s with cars like the 404 which won the East African Safari several times from the early '60s and it could be said, with the odd exception, that the Pugs pretty much led the FWD charge into rallying.
It's good to hear about changes to Touring Car rules, and now you mention it, I do remember reading something about the outside contractor building engines, but even that I'm not exactly over the moon about.
Slipping on my rose tinted spectacles (not for the first time) I have to say that without doubt the best and most competitive racing I used to see at Oulton, Donnington Croft and the like were one make series such as the Escort or Mini Celebrity races or the BMW County Championships. It was always funny at the end to stand in the paddock and tot up all the bits that came back in the back of the pick up truck after watching the Marshalls darting onto the track to pick up wings, bumpers and wheels. But, like football or almost any sport it was great to support and cheer for one side or the other and the memories of Gabrielle Tarquini cornering his Alfa 155 on three wheels will stay with me for ever.
It wouldn't quite be the same, to me at any rate, if they all had the same engines, just as I have little interest in a space framed, carbon fibre bodied BMW M3. The original saloon cars were little more than showroom models with the spare seats removed, hub caps thrown in the bin and the air filters taken out. Although it was a little before my time, seeing Mini Cooper 1000s mixing it with 7 litre Ford Falcons and Mk2 Jags still made for damn good racing. There was nothing like seeing massive yank tanks being overcome by a swarm of little BMC shopping trollies and then watching the V8s reeling them in on the straights with the Jags always quicker on the straights than the Minis but slower through the twisty bits.
I can see how one engine make would work in an open wheel formula with the likes of van Diemens or Rolts but surely a Ford should have a Ford engine, a BMW a BMW motor and so on.
It's good to hear about changes to Touring Car rules, and now you mention it, I do remember reading something about the outside contractor building engines, but even that I'm not exactly over the moon about.
Slipping on my rose tinted spectacles (not for the first time) I have to say that without doubt the best and most competitive racing I used to see at Oulton, Donnington Croft and the like were one make series such as the Escort or Mini Celebrity races or the BMW County Championships. It was always funny at the end to stand in the paddock and tot up all the bits that came back in the back of the pick up truck after watching the Marshalls darting onto the track to pick up wings, bumpers and wheels. But, like football or almost any sport it was great to support and cheer for one side or the other and the memories of Gabrielle Tarquini cornering his Alfa 155 on three wheels will stay with me for ever.
It wouldn't quite be the same, to me at any rate, if they all had the same engines, just as I have little interest in a space framed, carbon fibre bodied BMW M3. The original saloon cars were little more than showroom models with the spare seats removed, hub caps thrown in the bin and the air filters taken out. Although it was a little before my time, seeing Mini Cooper 1000s mixing it with 7 litre Ford Falcons and Mk2 Jags still made for damn good racing. There was nothing like seeing massive yank tanks being overcome by a swarm of little BMC shopping trollies and then watching the V8s reeling them in on the straights with the Jags always quicker on the straights than the Minis but slower through the twisty bits.
I can see how one engine make would work in an open wheel formula with the likes of van Diemens or Rolts but surely a Ford should have a Ford engine, a BMW a BMW motor and so on.
The problem with that is that fans want close motorsport. So series organisers come up with terrible balance of equivalency formulas. Manufacturers support this because its much much cheaper than the 90's arms race that we saw in touring cars and no one has any appetite for more deaths. It's where we are. The alternative is no motorsport.
Main issue with this is while all the animals are equal some are more equal than others. See Silverstone meeting this year when the ford focus ngtc car went last to 1st while the honda civic had been hobbled so badly as to be laughable on the straights. Teams spend more time whinging how they've had their boost wound down for being successful than developing the car!
In some ways its good privateer teams can build their own new car out of the bits and get something competitive. More competitive teams, cheaper to get involved.
I never said it was a good idea or exciting. It just is.
wife bought me a box set of 1990-1999 wrc season reviews First move was to out the 1997 disc in and watch Colin and Carlos bitching about how fast the 306 maxi's were in Corsica
First move was to out the 1997 disc in and watch Colin and Carlos bitching about how fast the 306 maxi's were in Corsica Coincidentally, I watched a Touring Car season round up the other day, and I understand how winners of the first round are handicapped with ballast, but how were Vectras so competitive in so many of the races?
Not only are they pretty obsolete, they haven't been made for 3 years or so, but they are bigger than pretty much everything out there and should, unless they're running on old rules or something, be way slower than Civics and Focuses (Focii?)
So how does that happen then?
Not only are they pretty obsolete, they haven't been made for 3 years or so, but they are bigger than pretty much everything out there and should, unless they're running on old rules or something, be way slower than Civics and Focuses (Focii?)
So how does that happen then?
I hate the btcc these days. There was a point where it was world championship level, now it is just amateur hour. That goes for the competition and the organisation. Remember when the grid was decided by a spinning wheel of chance? How flipping amateur was that?
Ah, homologation specials how I do miss thee.
There are effectively two sets of cars running at once, s2000 and ngtc, s2000 cars are lighter are allowed to run same engines, but have smaller tyres and brakes. Consequently they tend to the boy on tracks with lots of straights, especially that infernal bloody Vauxhall. NGTC cars are the newer rule set have bigger brakes and tyres but weigh more also they tend to have had their turbo boost reduced to make them comparable with s2000 which makes them slow in a straight line as they can carry much higher corner speeds...all things being equal ngtc cars would walk it but as I was elluding to earlier, there is not just success ballast, they adjust the turbo boost periodically to make the fast cars slower and slow cars faster.
The XR 4X4 wasn't strictly speaking a "Homologation Special" as the model wasn't one that was used (much) in competition, unlike the RS1600 and 1800. I tend to think that it was more of a development model for future road cars as it also appeared as a 2 litre model as well. I think the programme was wound up as apart from a Scorpio, Ford didn't make any other 4X4s.....until the Jaguar X-Type came along.
So the Vectras and other older cars are s2000 and the newer ones ngtc? If I've got that right you're implying that both sets of cars are competing within different sets of rules? This isn't entirely new methinks. I'm pretty certain something similar used to happen years ago when there was a rule change and some competitors used to keep on campaigning older cars until there was some sort of chronological cut off point. It may have happened in rallying as well as circuit racing.
You are correct, the s2000 cars in btcc are built to the old rules, however in wtcc s2000 cars are the prevailing ruleset. Btcc ditched s2000 to cut costs as apparently even a private team can afford to develop an NGTC car to be competitive. However there is some debate as to if they are truly competitive or the rules punish the top teams for developing their cars to be faster than the others while those behind get more bhp to compensate.
