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Old 08-12-2020   #16
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

For me, one of the clever aspects of the new 500 is giving buyers the choice of battery size. Like the Mini, many 500s are used as a second cars or city cars, so the cheaper, smaller battery version will be fine. Those who use it for longer runs will have to spend extra, but at least there is the option.
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Old 08-12-2020   #17
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
There is literally billions in investment into a future of electric vehicles and no one would be buying them if as you've claimed was found to be true.
Not sure I was 'claiming' anything re batteries just passing my opinion why I am not ready for an electric car from experience with many other items that the batteries just don't last and the false claims of the auto makers regarding fuel efficiency. I have a Range Rover (Diesel) claimed 45mpg actual 28mpg. Previous Jaguar XJ (petrol) claimed 28mpg actual 20mpg.......and OK I get the reasons/excuses the Diesels don't give the mpg until done over a 1000 miles and the Jaguar needs a good regular 'blasting' which unfortunately does not fit into my calm and gentle driving characteristics. Those are my claims and I assure this is FACT.


I appreciate rechargeable batteries have come a long way over the years and if what you say is correct then the battery could/should then be given a lifetime warranty and that would be a good starter. Lots of complaints though still live online re Apple iPhone battery life so why should we believe the car industry has suddenly got it all sussed out. There are claims also on smaller devices where the batteries are 'intelligent' charging and this has been around ever since the old rechargeables were discovered to have a 'memory' issue.


The manufacturers should then be looking to make the batteries a 'universal' simple quick fit (they can vary the capacity and have say 4 sizes) then instead of waiting hours on a trip from A-B that is longer than battery life then motorway/service stations could change their format to be a quick fit battery changeover as it would not matter then having the original battery and you just pay to have a charged battery replaced instead of filling up with fuel or waiting for charge ups.

Just think how safe some people feel driving into an unknown place parking up where theives would know the car is going to be static for a while and maybe even unattended. As I said maybe one day I will move to a hybrid but not convinced yet at all that the whole industry has it sorted for battery cars where individuals need to travel longer distances on an individual journey.

And for sure when all cars are electric 'eventually' and there will be no turning back then the government starts putting taxes on (roads will have to be paid for), or will that just be put on the cost of electricity so even our homes start having to pay more.

Maybe a good separate thread as clearly worthwhile to discuss given the dislikes and likes put against my comment above as there are completely opposite views.

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Old 08-12-2020   #18
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by Farrah View Post
there are completely opposite views
That's healthy; it promotes meaningful discussion. I can find something to agree with, and something to diagree with, in just about every post I've seen here so far.

Just don't join this thread if you're looking for everyone to agree with what you're saying.

My own contribution is to suggest that, in overall pence per mile terms, the long term cost of motoring in the post-electric world will be considerably more expensive than it is today.
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Old 08-12-2020   #19
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post

Just don't join this thread if you're looking for everyone to agree with what you're saying.
That is probably the worst comment I have ever seen.....and from a moderator....tell you what I will just leave the forum

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Old 08-12-2020   #20
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by Farrah View Post
That is probably the worst comment I have ever seen.....and from a moderator....tell you what I will just leave the forum

Farrah
I'm very sorry if you took it personally; I certainly didn't mean it to be; I was just observing that there are always going to be a wide range of different and sometimes strongly held views about electric cars.
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Old 08-12-2020   #21
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars.....

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
True..
But I'd been talking about getting a Renault
Which is why Iíd not say youíre a skeptic.

As I said there are draw backs to electric cars and while some make them a massive problem or barrier, others like your self try to work around them

Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
What really irritates me is the awful habit of making cars bigger, wider, heavier with each new release. I accept the weight increase in an electric car, but otherwise cars should rater get smaller than bigger, space in the streets is the biggest problem these days.

And most of the time, it's only 1 person in the car these days while the old 500 used to carry families with 3 kids.:
All comes down to safety, has nothing to do with electric cars, pitch a 1960ía fiat 500 against a 2020 version in a head to head collision and youíll soon see why they donít make the small cars like they use to.

Quote Originally Posted by TrevC View Post
For me, one of the clever aspects of the new 500 is giving buyers the choice of battery size. Like the Mini, many 500s are used as a second cars or city cars, so the cheaper, smaller battery version will be fine. Those who use it for longer runs will have to spend extra, but at least there is the option.
sadly in the Mini (at least at the moment) they only have one battery size with a relatively small range, then again maybe thatís clever and they know most people as you point out will only use them round town ?

At least the 500 has a reasonably useable range.

Quote Originally Posted by Farrah View Post
Not sure I was 'claiming' anything re batteries just passing my opinion why I am not ready for an electric car from experience with many other items that the batteries just don't last


I appreciate rechargeable batteries have come a long way over the years and if what you say is correct then the battery could/should then be given a lifetime warranty and that would be a good starter. Lots of complaints though still live online re Apple iPhone battery life so why should we believe the car industry has suddenly got it all sussed out.

Go back an read what @g8rpi said

ď You cannot compare batteries in consumer items with those in EVs. The batttery management in EVs ensures that they are never over discharged or over charged.

Over discharging and over charging cells is very harmful to them. Due to the size and cost of EV batteries they are never charged or discharged to their maximum capacity. The slight loss in range per charge is far outweighed by the dramatic increase in battery life. With a torch, drill, cellphone etc the working life and cost of the item means using the full battery capacity at the expense of life is appropriate.Ē


New iPhone batteries do last and work a lot better than they did on the iPhone 6 and 6s which is the model that caused a lot of controversy with rapidly losing capacity and shutting down in use.

New iPhones (like the one I own now) will stop charging in the night at 80% and then will intelligently charge the last few percent in the hour before you are due to wake. You can also set some goods to not fully charge, my laptop (Lenovo) will do this and the battery is still good in that after 3 years.
Seriously rather than making assumptions go and do some research into this and youíll see that after 100,000 miles electric cars see very little degradation in the battery. Most manufacturers will give an 8 year battery warranty, no one is going to give a life time warranty on a battery but if you buy a car new then whatís the likelihood most people wonít have replaced it twice by 8 years.

An electric drill will wreck its battery and at £50 a time for a replacement itís not a bad cash cow for the makers, but when you up that to £8k for a new electric car battery suddenly you find consumers are not going to buy your car if it does destroy its own battery.

Tesla tried the battery swap system, it didnít work and itís expensive.... very very expensive, also who owns the battery in that situation, who is liable of the battery breaks down. Itís very difficult to swap electric car batteries out mainly because they weight hundreds of KG. Itís a kin to suggesting rather than fill your tank with petrol you swap a full tank for the empty tank every time you go to the petrol station. New electric cars will charge to 80% range in under an hour and if charging the car at home, most would not need to charge away from home unless on a very long journey, in which case youíll plan your charge stops. After 200 miles of driving most people would want to stop for a coffee and something to eat.

Quote Originally Posted by Farrah View Post
That is probably the worst comment I have ever seen.....and from a moderator....tell you what I will just leave the forum
Perhaps a bit overkill, I canít see anything I JRKitchingís post to warrant that?
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Old 08-12-2020   #22
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
All comes down to safety, has nothing to do with electric cars, pitch a 1960’a fiat 500 against a 2020 version in a head to head collision and you’ll soon see why they don’t make the small cars like they use to.
Then pitch 2020 against a 1995s vehicle (where airbags and ABS are included) and the difference will become marginal. So we might as well stop heaping safety features on safety features and some bureaucrats inventing even more mandatory requirements. Bringing risk down to zero comes at a infinite cost. Which is neither realistic from an engineering and commercial point of view, nor is it ecologically sustainable.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
An electric drill will wreck its battery and at £50 a time for a replacement it’s not a bad cash cow for the makers, but when you up that to £8k for a new electric car battery suddenly you find consumers are not going to buy your car if it does destroy its own battery.
Same thing - not sustainable thinking. Planned obsolescence by the makers and ignorance or plain lazyness by the consumers (power drill).
On the car, the price is big enough that at least the consumers get focused a bit more and start thinking. This is much more relevant than the useless range discussions that are totally irrelevant for probably 90% of drivers in 90% of their use cases.
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Old 08-12-2020   #23
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Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
Then pitch 2020 against a 1995s vehicle (where airbags and ABS are included) and the difference will become marginal. So we might as well stop heaping safety features on safety features and some bureaucrats inventing even more mandatory requirements. Bringing risk down to zero comes at a infinite cost. Which is neither realistic from an engineering and commercial point of view, nor is it ecologically sustainable.

This video features a lot of older cars from the mid 90s with airbags and either put through modern tests or crashed into new cars, demonstrate how the progress on car safety has improved massively, itís certainly not a marginal improvement

https://youtu.be/TikJC0x65X0

This is why NCAP like to retest cars that have not been updated for a long time like the panda and the Punto and they score a lot worse than they did first time round.

Just one example is that fiat updated the 500 safety features a few years back and while the overall shape of the car doesnít change the safety of the car did improve.

Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post

Same thing - not sustainable thinking. Planned obsolescence by the makers and ignorance or plain lazyness by the consumers (power drill).
On the car, the price is big enough that at least the consumers get focused a bit more and start thinking. This is much more relevant than the useless range discussions that are totally irrelevant for probably 90% of drivers in 90% of their use cases.
I agree that planned obsolescence is wrong it is done deliberately to make sure people buy new items and companies keep making money, they make very carful plans to make sure that things fail but not so soon that it upsets there customers.
Itís wrong both for the customers and the environment because stuff still ends up in land fill, but if you think like this than start to look around at other massively wasteful things that we do that really shouldnít be sustainable. Go and do the maths on how many tea bags we use every year in the uk, itís something like 100, million every day !

As for range this is a very relevant question for most people, if you charge your car you want to know that it will get you where you want to go and also get home again. My wife drives 65 miles to work, so 110 mile round trips every day, you might also want to go via some shops drop into a friends house etc, so maybe you want 150 miles range, running heaters, rain. And other poor weather results in reduced range, which is why fiat, vw and other companies are aiming for around 200 miles range in their first electric car efforts, if you want more range then some companies are offering bigger battery options.

The batteries have long warranties and the likes of Vw and tesla are planning million mile batteries, so the durability of the battery should be the least concerning thing when buying electric.
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Last edited by AndyRKett; 08-12-2020 at 12:15.
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Old 08-12-2020   #24
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
This video features a lot of older cars from the mid 90s with airbags and either put through modern tests or crashed into new cars, demonstrate how the progress on car safety has improved massively, it’s certainly not a marginal improvement
ok, Youīre right, compared to 1995, thereīs a clear improvement in traffic related deaths. However, it is nearly constant since 2010. So maybe we have reached a sensible limit.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
This is why NCAP like to retest cars that have not been updated for a long time like the panda and the Punto and they score a lot worse than they did first time round.
Now what does this mean ? The cars havenīt changed, so someone moved the goalposts ??

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Go and do the maths on how many tea bags we use every year in the uk, it’s something like 100, million every day !
As long as they are biodegradable (and most of them are), thatīs fine. I do have issues though when they start using plastic on them.

And for the range - yes, I agree, the range up to 200 miles may be relevant for quite a few people, and this is a practical number. But most of the discussions and wish lists center around distances that most people drive once in a year on vacation.
Again, it is not economical to design for the worst case that occurs in less than 5% of times. In that type of situation, I would rent a different car for 2 weeks...
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Old 08-12-2020   #25
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
ok, Youīre right, compared to 1995, thereīs a clear improvement in traffic related deaths. However, it is nearly constant since 2010. So maybe we have reached a sensible limit.
"This is because killed or seriously injured casualty numbers have declined slightly since 2010 while traffic has increased over the same period. The casualty rate per billion vehicle miles travelled has decreased throughout 2008 to 2018 from 735.7 to 484.5 casualties per billion vehicle miles, a decrease of 34%"



Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
Now what does this mean ? The cars havenīt changed, so someone moved the goalposts ??
Of course the cars change. People with Grande puntos think their cars are as as safe as a Punto Evo yet one simple example of how the two cars differ is that the EVO had a completely redesigned dash with a new knee airbag. The way the seatbelts were mounted to the car and not the seats also differs. Little tweeks like these make a newer model of the same car safer. The other thing that Fiat has done is introduce stronger materials without changing the design of the car, Boron Steel is often used in hig stress areas to make a body stronger and more resistant against accidents. without increasing weight, it does however increase costs.


Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
As long as they are biodegradable (and most of them are), thatīs fine. I do have issues though when they start using plastic on them.
Sorry to say but Tetley, Twinings, PG Tips, Clipper and yorkshire tea all have some forms of plastic in their tea bags, I have no information but I think its fair to assume many of the own brand and budget bags also do.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50260687

I'm guessing you'd not realised this?


Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
And for the range - yes, I agree, the range up to 200 miles may be relevant for quite a few people, and this is a practical number. But most of the discussions and wish lists center around distances that most people drive once in a year on vacation.
Again, it is not economical to design for the worst case that occurs in less than 5% of times. In that type of situation, I would rent a different car for 2 weeks...
I think i know what argument you're making here. but i'm not sure why you're making it. There are the Skeptics that will whine that there diesel vauxhall insignia will do 600 miles on a tank and take seconds to fill, but then as you say who needs to do that sort of distance every day.

Electric cars and people who are buying them are using their brains and adapting their ways to make it work so as a consequence the people who buy them are not letting a 200 mile range bother them. The people who want a 600 mile range from a single charge are just using that as an excuse not to buy one.

My experiance from my ID.3 test drive on Saturday is that the car will do 200 miles on a charge. There is nothing in the way the car is made or drives, that feels vastly different to any other car. It will charge at home on a 7kw charger in around 7 hours. So if you're a person who sleeps (and most people are) you can do a reasonable 150 miles a day. over 1000 miles a week and never be concerned about running out of juice. If you really needed a car to do a longer Trip VW (and i'm sure other companies will) include a car loan so many times a year for a long distance journey.

Most people who buy something like a Fiat 500 would, maybe not even need to charge once a week. Could charge it off a domestic 3 pin plug and still not run into trouble.

There may even be a time in the future when people want a smaller battery with a smaller range because 80 year old Fred who drives once a week to the shops and once a month to the doctors, doesn't need anything more than a 50 mile range for that once a year trip to the hospital for something or to visit family for Chrismas.
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Old 08-12-2020   #26
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

The tea bag story is shocking indeed. Didn't know that, you're right. Good that I make my tea from loose leaves because I probably drink more of it than the average Englishman.

I still don't see why a car that was rated safe should be worse or unsafe 10 years later. If the test criteria have changed, then that merely means someone's definition of "safe" has changed. But that's just another subtle way of planned obsolescence, scaring people into buying a new car and scrapping the old one. Safety arguments stop people from thinking, even if the probability of being stricken by lightning is higher.

I partially concur on the range discussion, indeed for the sceptics it will always be a killer argument. I still believe ist is in general overrated because most people will be fine with 150-200 miles. It is similar to GBs on the mobile - people buy massive data plans just in case and most of them hardly ever need them.
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Old 08-12-2020   #27
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

Quote Originally Posted by Gina500 View Post
I still don't see why a car that was rated safe should be worse or unsafe 10 years later.
It's not that older cars are any more dangerous than they once were; it's that the alternatives you can buy now are safer than the alternatives you could buy then.

As manufacturers develop safer products, safety standards move on. The accident statistics over time reflect this.
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Old 08-12-2020   #28
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

The other thing that has changed is the NCAP now takes account of accident prevention systems like auto braking, lane drift alerts etc. Older models don't have these so score lower on the latest tests.

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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

[QUOTE=Farrah;4568502]

or will that just be put on the cost of electricity so even our homes start having to pay more.

Keep your ideas to yourself! Dont give the silly ******* any ideas. Such thoughts are not meant to be shared out loud! I shall hold you to blame when this happens.

Note I said when not if! I thought it, you thought it........
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Re: I've never been a fan of electric cars........

https://youtu.be/kaUw4hNVr5s

This is a very interesting video from an EV specialist talking about battery degradation on a few 7 year old cars. There are a couple of low mileage Zoes that have only lost 2 or 3 percent of their capacity, and a 95,000 mile Leaf that has lost about 15%. Leafs (Leaves?) don't have thermal management of their battery packs, so they are known to degrade more than most others.

It supports what I have gleaned from various other places - EV battery degradation is not a major issue, and can in no way be compared to drills, phones etc.

I watched another video a few days ago that showed another EV specialist replacing a cell pack in a 10 year old Leaf. Took about 2 hours and cost £500, and full range (albeit only 100 miles) was restored, so you don't necessarily have to scrap the car if the battery develops a fault out of warranty.
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