i agree, refuse to pay
Technical Clutch failure @ 12,000 miles
- Thread starter a73uk
- Start date
-
- Tags
- 500 clutch failure
Currently reading:
Technical Clutch failure @ 12,000 miles
i agree, refuse to pay
OP
OP
Unfortunately he has paid, they wouldnt let him have the car back till he did.
He`s self employed & works 7 days a week for up to 12 hours per day, the car was off the road since Saturday afternoon, he had already lost significant amounts of money, plus apparently he had a test today & couldnt mess around waiting for Fiat to deal with it.
He then called customer services who said they cant do anything as he`d already paid & he would now have to get his own an independent engineers inspection & forward the findings to them. They didnt specify any requirements.
I still havent seen it yet but I`ll get pictures in the next few days.
He`s self employed & works 7 days a week for up to 12 hours per day, the car was off the road since Saturday afternoon, he had already lost significant amounts of money, plus apparently he had a test today & couldnt mess around waiting for Fiat to deal with it.
He then called customer services who said they cant do anything as he`d already paid & he would now have to get his own an independent engineers inspection & forward the findings to them. They didnt specify any requirements.
I still havent seen it yet but I`ll get pictures in the next few days.
Last edited:
Yea, I'd be writing to Fiat HQ!
Lets turn this argument around and say how many 'knowing' customers claim their car has been damaged or it never made that noise before or the engine warning light was never on before until you changed the tyre
It happens almost daily (we have camera evidence to prove it & another reason pre-checks are done infront of the customer) and I have come across many instances where customers have deliberately damaged (foot on clutch until it burns out) their car in the hope of getting it rejected (this mainly happens on company car owners who didn't get the car they wanted) the relationship between customer & garage afterall is a two way street.Most garages (inc dealerships) run on very tight profit margins, it would be foolhardy to try & con people in these times with mystery shops,internet & the customer being generally more informed.
OP
OP
"Many" instances? I`ve never heard of that personally T14086, not that I disbelieve you, once maybe, twice possible, but "many instances"?
I`ve never tried to deliberately burn a clutch out, but that must take some level of commitment...
At the end of the day this is a self employed driving instructor who can seriously do without loosing his car without warning for days on end.
Even if he did get a courtesy car, it wont have dual controls so he still couldnt work, even if you could get a courtesy car with dual controls, it wouldnt be a 500 & you cant just chop & change cars with pupils, especially if they have a test.
So, he isnt about to sabotage his own car now is he...
The dealer knows his buisness situation & knows he isnt trying to pull a fast one, if I go into ultra sceptical mode, I could say they said it wasnt warranty because they knew the car was immobilised & because its vital he has a working car, he would most likely authorise the paid replacement under duress....
His previous car, as mentioned, did 40k per clutch, so for the Fiat one to fail at nearly a quarter of that does point to a fault, especially when there was no slipping or warning beforehand.
What about all these Fiat owners on this forum who are being accused of overrevving their cars by dealers T14086?
Also, for the dealer to state that it wasnt covered by warranty before an inspection is made highlights their mentality, the same mentality both I & family members have experienced at Fiat dealers for decades. Its a fob off & the statement you make about people being better informed these days doesnt seem to bother bad dealers at all, some of the explinations given are unbelievably rediculous.
Now, I`m not saying its every dealer, but it is the majority & its hardly practical to take your car 100 miles everytime it needs work done, especially when Fiat dealers dont automatically give customers courtesy cars & also when its a working vehicle.
I`ve never tried to deliberately burn a clutch out, but that must take some level of commitment...
At the end of the day this is a self employed driving instructor who can seriously do without loosing his car without warning for days on end.
Even if he did get a courtesy car, it wont have dual controls so he still couldnt work, even if you could get a courtesy car with dual controls, it wouldnt be a 500 & you cant just chop & change cars with pupils, especially if they have a test.
So, he isnt about to sabotage his own car now is he...
The dealer knows his buisness situation & knows he isnt trying to pull a fast one, if I go into ultra sceptical mode, I could say they said it wasnt warranty because they knew the car was immobilised & because its vital he has a working car, he would most likely authorise the paid replacement under duress....
His previous car, as mentioned, did 40k per clutch, so for the Fiat one to fail at nearly a quarter of that does point to a fault, especially when there was no slipping or warning beforehand.
What about all these Fiat owners on this forum who are being accused of overrevving their cars by dealers T14086?
Also, for the dealer to state that it wasnt covered by warranty before an inspection is made highlights their mentality, the same mentality both I & family members have experienced at Fiat dealers for decades. Its a fob off & the statement you make about people being better informed these days doesnt seem to bother bad dealers at all, some of the explinations given are unbelievably rediculous.
Now, I`m not saying its every dealer, but it is the majority & its hardly practical to take your car 100 miles everytime it needs work done, especially when Fiat dealers dont automatically give customers courtesy cars & also when its a working vehicle.
Lets turn this argument around and say how many 'knowing' customers claim their car has been damaged or it never made that noise before or the engine warning light was never on before until you changed the tyre
Most garages (inc dealerships) run on very tight profit margins, it would be foolhardy to try & con people in these times with mystery shops,internet & the customer being generally more informed.
OP
OP
Based on my knowledge and experience of clutch replacement, I must admit this does look like total failure of the friction material. That has just got to be a warantee job - surely!!?
The only situation I could imagine this being a user fault is someones foot slipping off the clutch pedal at high revs and shearing the friction material. Close examination of the rivets might show sideways distortion to prove or disprove this theory.
Last edited:
if it had worn out, i.e, 'normal wear and tear' the flywheel side would also be significantly worn down
looks like a manufacturing fault on the plate, and you can quote me on it
Robert Whitney IEng MIIE
looks like a manufacturing fault on the plate, and you can quote me on it
Robert Whitney IEng MIIE
Not just clutches I ment, there are many ways of abusing a car in the hope of rejection. Knew a guy that burnt a clutch in 4 miles though, it stank!
Theres insurance to cover loss of earnings which is up to the individual to arrange,wise in such a profession as this. Loads of dual control hire cars where I live, used to hire one £15/4 hours+fuel for the wife when she was learning...weren't letting her ruin my car
Paying for clutch himself (not a admission of guilt) is probably the fastest way, otherwise prior authority/inspection would be needed which can take some time. At least this way he is back on road quickly while contacting customer services etc for possible reinbursment.
Depends what the circumstances are.
Well yes & no, if the garage did a stripdown & inspection then warranty say no who pays for garages time? What would of been better is "there might be a charge for inspection if it is not covered by warranty for whatever reason" just to make the customer aware. What normally happens is car is left dead on ramp for often weeks (thus wasting a valuable ramp) while customer & warranty come to a conclusion. Dealers are often the piggy in the middle.
I dont think so, look at the populrity of forums such as this, customers often say to me "well I read this on the internet" etc etc...compared to 5 years ago odd they are more clued up even when buying a car (or TV,mobile phone etc...basic research is good commonsense to avoid dissapointment & its free
) they seek out information beforehand. Commonsense really. I agree some garages come away with such stupid explanations...honesty is the best policy even if it doesn't make the garage look too good because more than likely the customer will discover the truth!Again there are good & not so good dealers, trick is to find a good one but Fiat or the garage cant be blamed for being far away. Courtesy cars are as they are named 'courtesy', the AA normally provide cars in the first year for a limited period. Courtesy cars are expensive to run (they are often subject to extreme abuse) and again providing cover in such cases through insurance would be a wise move by anyone who uses their vehicle for work/income think its called commercial insurance but not too sure...think this is mentioned in the cars terms of warranty.
Thousends of miles life left in that yet
OP
OP
Exactly my feelings Bax & Rob, thank you.
Aside from the obvious intact flywheel side yet completely missing cover side, note how the rivets didnt even have time to score the cover in the way it would during `wear & tear`, the surface is very good, unwarped, not heat discoloured, still carrying its original machining marks, it must have literally exploded (which would explain the muted pop).
Note also how theres fibre & friction material wedged into the outer edges of the cover & the lack of apparent heat tempering of the plate.
Theres no burnt smell either.
All these things point to it being a friction surface failure, not abuse.
As far as I`m concerned, any self respecting dealer that caredabout its customers would put this in as a warranty claim.
This guy was very happy with the 500 as were his customers who seem to find it easier to drive than the previous Corsa. He usually changes his cars every year, he would have been a very good future customer.
After this epic failure of both car & dealer, he`s already wondering which non-Fiat he should replace it with....
Aside from the obvious intact flywheel side yet completely missing cover side, note how the rivets didnt even have time to score the cover in the way it would during `wear & tear`, the surface is very good, unwarped, not heat discoloured, still carrying its original machining marks, it must have literally exploded (which would explain the muted pop).
Note also how theres fibre & friction material wedged into the outer edges of the cover & the lack of apparent heat tempering of the plate.
Theres no burnt smell either.
All these things point to it being a friction surface failure, not abuse.
As far as I`m concerned, any self respecting dealer that caredabout its customers would put this in as a warranty claim.
This guy was very happy with the 500 as were his customers who seem to find it easier to drive than the previous Corsa. He usually changes his cars every year, he would have been a very good future customer.
After this epic failure of both car & dealer, he`s already wondering which non-Fiat he should replace it with....
- Joined
- May 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,119
- Points
- 198
To be fair to the dealer they may well have struggled getting the money out of Fiat, it being an instructor car and the clutch being failed. They may well have preferred just not to get involved; the end user could have (perhaps should have?) taken the car to another Fiat dealer.
But either way there is absolutely nothing to stop him taking on the case with Fiat directly to reclaim the money spent, which since it is his revenue source is probably the most cost effective solution in any case.
But either way there is absolutely nothing to stop him taking on the case with Fiat directly to reclaim the money spent, which since it is his revenue source is probably the most cost effective solution in any case.
OP
OP
I dont think that is fair of the dealer.
Fiats waranty department dont help matters, but that doesnt mean the dealer should avoid doing something morally right, especially when it means charging the customer a pretty huge £600+ potentially every 4 months.
Every year he`s not only going to lay out for 4 times more servicing, pads & tyres than everyone else(aprox £12-1500 if done at Fiat, not including seperate failures deemed `not included in warranty`), but he`s also going to have to lay out £1800 a year in replacement clutches.
Fiat also dont know the cars a driving school car, what the car does for a living is irellivant, as far as warranty dept are concerned, its a car that the clutch has failed on, within warranty period (3 years/ 30,000 miles in this case).[/quote]
He fully intends to take this up with customer services.
Fiats waranty department dont help matters, but that doesnt mean the dealer should avoid doing something morally right, especially when it means charging the customer a pretty huge £600+ potentially every 4 months.
Every year he`s not only going to lay out for 4 times more servicing, pads & tyres than everyone else(aprox £12-1500 if done at Fiat, not including seperate failures deemed `not included in warranty`), but he`s also going to have to lay out £1800 a year in replacement clutches.
Fiat also dont know the cars a driving school car, what the car does for a living is irellivant, as far as warranty dept are concerned, its a car that the clutch has failed on, within warranty period (3 years/ 30,000 miles in this case).[/quote]
Yaris or Aygo
I'd be writing to Fiat HQ myself with a very firm letter!
He fully intends to take this up with customer services.
Last edited:
OP
OP
Oh right, I see. (Re: clutches)
I asked him yesterday & he said he isnt covered for loss of earnings, he said you can rent dual control cars IF you give them warning (like when you`ve got your car booked in for a service in a weeks time), not at the drop of a hat & not at the weekend, also it wouldnt be a 500 & its not fair to the pupils to put them in another car for a lesson or two, let alone having to put them through a test in a different car to what theyve driven before (although it happened to me when I went for my secont test, which I passed!).
That is the reason he paid, he simply wanted his car back for the test he had yesterday, its not an admission of guilt/acceptance & he fully intends to take this up with customer services/warranty dept.
I can empathyse with the ramp situation and the piggy in the middle situation, as I said, I`ve been in the trade since the late 80`s. However, the car in this case should have been repaired & the customer not charged & the clutch forwarded to warranty dept, or the customer charged under the proviso that he would be refunded when the warranty credit was made by Fiat UK (although @£400 labour which I see as excessive, they wouldnt have got paid out in full).
Out of interest, has anyone got a work timesheet for 500 clutch replacement?
I know courtesy cars get abuse, however that doesnt stop the most dealers providing them, sometimes with a deposit or a small charge. To not have one limits your customers.
I asked him yesterday & he said he isnt covered for loss of earnings, he said you can rent dual control cars IF you give them warning (like when you`ve got your car booked in for a service in a weeks time), not at the drop of a hat & not at the weekend, also it wouldnt be a 500 & its not fair to the pupils to put them in another car for a lesson or two, let alone having to put them through a test in a different car to what theyve driven before (although it happened to me when I went for my secont test, which I passed!).
That is the reason he paid, he simply wanted his car back for the test he had yesterday, its not an admission of guilt/acceptance & he fully intends to take this up with customer services/warranty dept.
I can empathyse with the ramp situation and the piggy in the middle situation, as I said, I`ve been in the trade since the late 80`s. However, the car in this case should have been repaired & the customer not charged & the clutch forwarded to warranty dept, or the customer charged under the proviso that he would be refunded when the warranty credit was made by Fiat UK (although @£400 labour which I see as excessive, they wouldnt have got paid out in full).
Out of interest, has anyone got a work timesheet for 500 clutch replacement?
I know courtesy cars get abuse, however that doesnt stop the most dealers providing them, sometimes with a deposit or a small charge. To not have one limits your customers.
Not just clutches I ment, there are many ways of abusing a car in the hope of rejection. Knew a guy that burnt a clutch in 4 miles though, it stank!
Theres insurance to cover loss of earnings which is up to the individual to arrange,wise in such a profession as this. Loads of dual control hire cars where I live, used to hire one £15/4 hours+fuel for the wife when she was learning...weren't letting her ruin my car
Paying for clutch himself (not a admission of guilt) is probably the fastest way, otherwise prior authority/inspection would be needed which can take some time. At least this way he is back on road quickly while contacting customer services etc for possible reinbursment.
Depends what the circumstances are.
Well yes & no, if the garage did a stripdown & inspection then warranty say no who pays for garages time? What would of been better is "there might be a charge for inspection if it is not covered by warranty for whatever reason" just to make the customer aware. What normally happens is car is left dead on ramp for often weeks (thus wasting a valuable ramp) while customer & warranty come to a conclusion. Dealers are often the piggy in the middle.
I dont think so, look at the populrity of forums such as this, customers often say to me "well I read this on the internet" etc etc...compared to 5 years ago odd they are more clued up even when buying a car (or TV,mobile phone etc...basic research is good commonsense to avoid dissapointment & its free
Again there are good & not so good dealers, trick is to find a good one but Fiat or the garage cant be blamed for being far away. Courtesy cars are as they are named 'courtesy', the AA normally provide cars in the first year for a limited period. Courtesy cars are expensive to run (they are often subject to extreme abuse) and again providing cover in such cases through insurance would be a wise move by anyone who uses their vehicle for work/income think its called commercial insurance but not too sure...think this is mentioned in the cars terms of warranty.
Thousends of miles life left in that yet
I've had tired, dirty old 4x4s as courtesy cars, and anything else that might have been lying about the forecourt. I couldn't care less as long as it runs; in fact I am happy to have a go in something different.
Re this clutch though. Yes, it appears it wasn't worn, but, might it not have been that a foot slipping off at high engine revs, possibly more than once, might, just, have caused the sudden failure?
I can also fully understand his upset at being without an essential vehicle and his need to get it back on the road as quickly as possible. It would be good just to know what exactly caused the failure.
Re this clutch though. Yes, it appears it wasn't worn, but, might it not have been that a foot slipping off at high engine revs, possibly more than once, might, just, have caused the sudden failure?
I can also fully understand his upset at being without an essential vehicle and his need to get it back on the road as quickly as possible. It would be good just to know what exactly caused the failure.
D4nny8oy
Established member
I can't remember the official figure, but it's well over 3 hours. Fiat used to allow nearly 4 hours for a mk2 Punto clutch which is substantially easier!
Also bear in mind there's a lot more to remove than back in the days of the Uno (front bumper for a start, due to the extended subframe) then there's the time spent with the Examiner afterwards (Proxi Alignment) and the various other data to be set-up before the vehicle is returned to the customer. Granted it doesn't take long to set-up the clock, date, radio, daylights, etc but the minutes soon add up.
ps, I know of Tech's who used to change Uno 3rd gear synchro's in their lunch (half) hour.... including the time to remove and refit the box. Happy days
OP
OP
I usually work on 60`s-90`s cars, I`ve yet to do anything major on a `current` Fiat/Alfa, but I still cant see how it`d take 3 hours even if you have to take the bumper off, & what needs reconfiguring on the computer for a clutch change? This data thing is getting rediculous, you`ll soon need to reset the system everytime you change the spare wheel...
Give it 5 years & no one other than main dealers will be able to do anything to a car, hundreds of normal garages will slowly shut & everyone will be at the mercy of the dealers (& alot of bad dealers at that), who`ll then be free to charge £500 an hour...
Older cars will be deemed financially unviable alot earlier than now, resulting in cars being scrapped alot earlier. Not good. The electrical second hand parts market is also going to change drastically & retrofitting anything will become virtually impossible.
What happens if you decide to do a road trip in a Fiat, through countries without dealers & something goes? you`d be left stranded hundreds or thousands of miles from any help...
Cars are set to become as disposable as any household white goods, not a good thing in these ecologically conscious times.
Anyway, I`m rambling, I still think its do-able in 1.5 hours, but fair enough. Thanks for the info DannyBoy.
Give it 5 years & no one other than main dealers will be able to do anything to a car, hundreds of normal garages will slowly shut & everyone will be at the mercy of the dealers (& alot of bad dealers at that), who`ll then be free to charge £500 an hour...
Older cars will be deemed financially unviable alot earlier than now, resulting in cars being scrapped alot earlier. Not good. The electrical second hand parts market is also going to change drastically & retrofitting anything will become virtually impossible.
What happens if you decide to do a road trip in a Fiat, through countries without dealers & something goes? you`d be left stranded hundreds or thousands of miles from any help...
Cars are set to become as disposable as any household white goods, not a good thing in these ecologically conscious times.
Anyway, I`m rambling, I still think its do-able in 1.5 hours, but fair enough. Thanks for the info DannyBoy.
I can't remember the official figure, but it's well over 3 hours. Fiat used to allow nearly 4 hours for a mk2 Punto clutch which is substantially easier!
Also bear in mind there's a lot more to remove than back in the days of the Uno (front bumper for a start, due to the extended subframe) then there's the time spent with the Examiner afterwards (Proxi Alignment) and the various other data to be set-up before the vehicle is returned to the customer. Granted it doesn't take long to set-up the clock, date, radio, daylights, etc but the minutes soon add up.
ps, I know of Tech's who used to change Uno 3rd gear synchro's in their lunch (half) hour.... including the time to remove and refit the box. Happy days
NumanR
Established member
The petrol clutch takes 3.7 hours, the diesel clutch takes 4.2 hours. These are warranty times that fiat will pay a dealer for the replacement of the clutch, and these are the times used in menu pricing.
OP
OP
Thanks NewmanR.
Heres a better pic of the plate so the `wear` (or lack of) & rivets can be seen better.
For the record it was driven to the owners home then to the dealer, around 7 miles total, after the point of failure.
For those of you that dont know about these things, `wear & tear` on a clutch would result in wear on both sides of the rotating centre plate with a degree of scoring to the covers plate (from the rivets), as you can see, the flywheel side still has plenty of friction material still on it.
IF the clutch had been burned out (abbused) there would be heat colouration on the rotating centre plate (blueing) & there would be significantly more soot over everything.
The metal backing plates you can see on the non-existent side would be covered in scoring, as would the cover plate (which is what it presses against).
There wouldnt be any rivets on that side sitting proud either, as you can see, theres still 1-2mm sitting proud, pointing to the friction material becoming detatched suddenly.
Heres a better pic of the plate so the `wear` (or lack of) & rivets can be seen better.
For the record it was driven to the owners home then to the dealer, around 7 miles total, after the point of failure.
For those of you that dont know about these things, `wear & tear` on a clutch would result in wear on both sides of the rotating centre plate with a degree of scoring to the covers plate (from the rivets), as you can see, the flywheel side still has plenty of friction material still on it.
IF the clutch had been burned out (abbused) there would be heat colouration on the rotating centre plate (blueing) & there would be significantly more soot over everything.
The metal backing plates you can see on the non-existent side would be covered in scoring, as would the cover plate (which is what it presses against).
There wouldnt be any rivets on that side sitting proud either, as you can see, theres still 1-2mm sitting proud, pointing to the friction material becoming detatched suddenly.
Attachments
Last edited:
but thats not the dealers/Fiats (or any car makers) fault, thats the consumer wanting every extra (air-con,ABS etc) on their cars which fill up the limited engine space & the goverments for EOBD laws...garages either keep up or fall away the same with most modern technologies I guess. As much as I often think about the ease of working on older cars (and things like TV's, washing machines etc) progress marches on & little anyone can do about that.
