General why modify a panda?

[Geddes]

Modifying a fairly new Panda might not make a huge amount of sense apart from the fun of it, but that's not to say modiying cars is pointless full stop.

Take for example the good old Mini (proper one not the BMW hairdresser-mobile). A Cooper S will set you back about the same as a new Panda 100 HP.
Instead get a stock Mini and pop down to the scrappies. Find a 1275 Metro with a good engine and take it. If it's a later Metro it'll have nice four pot calipers & vented disks for stopping, these can be made to fit a Mini. Alternatively find a post '84 Mini with disk brakes. Both of these brakes are better than the original Cooper S brakes.
Take all your bits home. The engine won't need much tweaking to get it up to the heady 75 bhp of the Cooper. Buy some new suspension bits, bolt together and voila! You have a car every bit as good to drive as a real Cooper S but at something like a tenth of the cost.

 

[trackdayqueen]

Why do people always try and put people off what they want to do...

Yes the point of a Panda is a small eco city car that saves you money so making it look better is in my eyes what its all about.

You only have to look at the old mini scene, if people didnt put their own ideas and styles into them it would have been boring and prob died out a long time ago. Funny, the Cooper owners looked down on the others who made their base models look good...

Seems the only members getting annoyed with members styling up their Actives and Dynamics are those who have spent a hell of a lot of money on a 100hp. If you can take a second hand active (in my case 15k 1.1 06, £2600) and spend £1k on styling it to get a sportier look and at the end have a cheaper to run more personalised car than a 100hp then why not???

99% of 100hp owners seem to keep them standard. Surley a tasty, custom looking Active is better than a standard cloned 100hp...ie insurance, running costs....

Sayin that id be pissed if I spent the money on a 100hp and was out looked by a Active.

Well thats my view.

Come on guys keep giving advice not put downs:slayer:

People are welcome to do what they want to their cars. No problem with that. I can't see how a 'custom' looking active can be better than a 100hp, if you are talking about how it drives in all honesty.

I honestly wouldn't care if I was 'out looked' by an Active (not sure what 'out looked' means) it's still an Active at the end of the day and a far lesser specc'd model.

I'm a bit more into go rather than show in all honesty.

 

[Pandemonium]

My brother knew someone who had an old Bedford HA van (going back some years ago) (looks like this http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/photos-cars/29.jpg )

the original engine was dying and he had to use easy start everytime it was a little cold or damp... so he decided to put another engine in... he could have put the same sort back... but he decided to modify it... dropped a rover V8 3.5 litre in it.. wasn't the orginal idea of the little van.. but it wasn't half fun... If he had bought a Jag Etype people would have known it was fast and kept away.. instead he had every boy racer pull up at the side of him at the lights and had endless fun just keeping them behind.. and then shooting off into the distance.... ...

IF you bought the 100hp (and lets face it , it wasn't much more the than the active by the time I'd added a decent colour, extra seatbelt etc..) people would know its fast.... why not shock them with your base line panda that makes them think twice about the little thing...?

From my point of view, being a more hands on type of person, I'd get more satisfaction of making a basic slow car go like stink, than just buying a faster car (anyone can buy a faster car... same on the race track.. just buy a faster car and you can keep up with those with more skill... those skilled on the race track wouldn't say I'm not fast enough lets get a faster car, they would want to push their own limits and get better, proving themselves... If I found I could bend this, push that, plug my lappy into that bit, alter this and get 30bhp more out a car, I'd have proved myself as someone who is skilled ... someone who knows something about cars... etc..)

its like telling someone who goes off roading in 4x4's as they stuggle with all four wheels slipping in the mud up the side of some boggy hill "just drive round it mate, there is a road over there, buy yourself a normal car and use the road"...

Project cars like the van you mentioned are something differently entirely. Those are fun projects that are great to see but generally only people with the space, money and time can pull off. I have seen a Mini with a Rover V8 and I have seen a video with those drag racing original Fiat 500's. None of those cars were obviously meant to have that much power. However they are that specialised that they become mainly show cars or track cars.

If you are going that far then you are talking about an entire engine change and probably everything else. With that in mind if you were going to do that with a Panda then you could just start off with any old empty chasis.

You can choose to modify an Active and after spending lots of money and time get it upto what, about 100hp? So you pull upto the lights with a 100hp and blow it away, ok fair enough. However if that 100hp owner spends the same amount of time and money modifying their car you wont have a chance. A 100hp can be taken to much higher levels than what an Active ever can so why not start with a 100hp in the first place??

Back when I had a Ford Probe and I was in the club a guy had extensively modified his car. He proudly stated that he had worked years on his car so now it had the same power as an Escort Cosworth. However he was utterly and totally wrong, he only had the power of a standard Cossie and how many of those are they? He had spent thousands getting his car to the original level of the Cosworth. Yet all a Cosworth owner would have to do is turn up the boost and all his years of toil and money spent was for nothing.

People always say they would like to see faces of those people they have just blown away with a modified car. Lets say blowing away a Porsche with a modified Golf GTI for example. Personally I would much prefer to be the owner of the Porsche. Its a precision engineered and expertly craftered piece of machinery and I wouldnt care about if a Golf GTI was faster. I would much happier driving around in my Porsche and not worrying about bits falling off and failing.

 

[trackdayqueen]

People always say they would like to see faces of those people they have just blown away with a modified car. Lets say blowing away a Porsche with a modified Golf GTI for example. Personally I would much prefer to be the owner of the Porsche. Its a precision engineered and expertly craftered piece of machinery and I wouldnt care about if a Golf GTI was faster. I would much happier driving around in my Porsche and not worrying about bits falling off and failing.

Well quite it only makes sense really to tune a car if you start with the top level, biggest engined car in the range to start with.

When I was 19 I modified a 2.3 Firenza. I met a guy who had blueprinted a 1.8 but didn't really understand the point. I went onto fully rebuild the engine to a pretty high spec, you know twin 45 Dellortos, stage 3 head, lightened and balanced bottom end, 4 branch exhaust etc, somehow I don't think a modified 1.8 would get anywhere near it.

Years later I had a MK1 MR2, the engine went, I put a later spec (than the original supercharged MR2) engine in and modified that. You could modify the NA 1.6 but you would be lucky to get near the performance of the supercharger and it'd cost far more to do it.

I also had a MK2 Astra GTE 16v which was stolen before I got a chance to play with it, but in comparison if you had a 1.4 Astra it'd be absolutely pointless to tune it as you'd never hope to beat the GTE 16v.

 

[ivantate]

Should I keep my head down? I have a Panda Dynamic that was 'chavved up' by Fiat UK.

It has the standard engine, standard suspension and wheels, and shock horror we still bought it.

Low running costs, everyday comfort, economy, enough speed, fun handling, cheap parts, slightly more individual looks are the reasons we have it and probably why most people want to mod a normal Panda. It would benefit massively from a suspension upgrade from a handling point of view so if thats what you want why not? It has enough speed to justify it and would improve the point to point times massively.

To be honest I have always wanted a 100hp and have more than enough funds in the bank to buy one but really cannot justify it for the work our Panda does. The missus would have stuck with her Seicento Abarth if it was a standard Dynamic as she hates the looks and interiors. Come to think of it wasnt the Seicento Abarth just a Sporting with a few badges and a bodykit.


Ahh, I feel really silly now as I have a 1972 Mini 1000 in the garage with loads of these dubious upgrades. Not to mention the MG badged Rover on the drive. Ermm and also those modified off-roaders that make make a meal of going to places perfectly good roads already go to.


I think some of us are just different.

 

[Pandemonium]

Well my point about the Porsche is that heavily modified cars are never relaible for day to day use anyway. Adding a few extra horses is fine but start to ramp it up and it wont last long.

I started modifying with a Renault 5 GT Turbo back when they were really popular. Thats when GT Tuning was a big hit and the owner of Charisma had an R5 with over 300 BHP. I modified mine to about 200 BHP but it was a total nightmare. I strenghted the head with rally spec head gasket and bolts. I added an extra large intercooler, copper cored rad and stage 3 turbo. I also fitted larger calipers and brake discs and 15" alloys up from the standard 13". I spent thousands and did everything I could to make the car realible.

Despite that the car would eat bearings and drive shafts. I tried uprated items but they would just last a bit longer. Even the 15" wheels would scrub on the inside arches and the turning circle was horrific. In short the car just wasnt designed to take that much power. So yes you could modify a car to blow away something more expensive. But down the road your car will be belting out smoke while the more expensive car just cruises on by.

To really modify an Active and make it fast you would have to spend thousands. The handling, suspension, engine and brakes all need to be worked on. Or what you could do is a "heres one Fiat made earlier" and buy a 100hp, they have done all the hard work for you.

 

[ivantate]

Not everyone modifies to get the maximum speed.

 

[306maxi]

Well my point about the Porsche is that heavily modified cars are never relaible for day to day use anyway. Adding a few extra horses is fine but start to ramp it up and it wont last long.

I started modifying with a Renault 5 GT Turbo back when they were really popular. Thats when GT Tuning was a big hit and the owner of Charisma had an R5 with over 300 BHP. I modified mine to about 200 BHP but it was a total nightmare. I strenghted the head with rally spec head gasket and bolts. I added an extra large intercooler, copper cored rad and stage 3 turbo. I also fitted larger calipers and brake discs and 15" alloys up from the standard 13". I spent thousands and did everything I could to make the car realible.

Despite that the car would eat bearings and drive shafts. I tried uprated items but they would just last a bit longer. Even the 15" wheels would scrub on the inside arches and the turning circle was horrific. In short the car just wasnt designed to take that much power. So yes you could modify a car to blow away something more expensive. But down the road your car will be belting out smoke while the more expensive car just cruises on by.

To really modify an Active and make it fast you would have to spend thousands. The handling, suspension, engine and brakes all need to be worked on. Or what you could do is a "heres one Fiat made earlier" and buy a 100hp, they have done all the hard work for you.

So true.

I too just don't understand why you wouldn't just buy a better one. I see a point to what I'm doing with my wifes car, getting rid of sloppy 16 year old bits and replacing those bits either with OEM stuff or stuff that's just a bit uprated.

Being a Subaru I could get any of the 2 litre turbo engines out of a newer Subaru and put it in, then I'd probably want to put the R180 rear diff in for reliability purposes which means a different gearbox, different driveshafts, different brakes which then means the car needs bigger wheels and the list goes on.

Why not just buy a bloody STI then?

 

[Pandemonium]

Not everyone modifies to get the maximum speed.

I think the Active handles fine as it is anyway. And if the stories of the 100hp's bumpy ride are anything to go by it rides better than that. Mods generally lead to more mods and more mods, not always though I know. Once you get a car handling better you need better brakes, then more power etc. I just think that if you sat down and thought to yourself that you wanted a sporty Panda you buy the sport model. You dont go running in hiking boots and dont go climbing in trainers.

Like you said before we are all different and I am just expressing my opinion. I have done the modifying thing to death and I wont do it again. The two things I learnt is that less is more and that its more important to know when to stop, not when to start.

 

[AskCy]

this topic is getting better and better...:slayer:

we tuned an old cortina ... had it skimmed to aircraft tolerances so if didn't need a head gasket !!!... ran beautifully...

had a 2litre standard sierra... threw the air filter out and it was a real mover of a car ....

had a polo that was haunted and would run like a pig all year long but would suddenly work perfectly if you took it anywhere near a test rig or its mot !!!

 

[trackdayqueen]

Not everyone modifies to get the maximum speed.

Maximum speed is never what it's about well unless you are an SLJ (straightline junkie). Invariably it's about handling, acceleration, balance and feel. I spent £7K modifying a Mk1 MR2. Yes at the end of it, it was one of the quickest known MR2s in the UK, especially so around a circuit. Great fun to have something different and it went from 122bhp to 182bhp with corresponding torque. I even did another after that and substantially lightened it for the track. Quick but not terribly practical though a power to weight of 180bhp per tonne wasn't too bad. But I have learnt that really fun though it is, modifying is a mugs game and you are better off buying a car that does what you want straight out of the box. Hence why I bought an Integra Type-R.

Though you can modify, tune sort out the handling, it's actually quite hard to beat a well sorted factory car and this is why the Integra Type-R would easily outhandle the MR2 and was more driver focused. So nowadays I just buy the exact car I want in the first place, well in the case of the 100hp it was simply buying a car that was the most fun I could have for the money. The 100hp was it.

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

Though you can modify, tune sort out the handling, it's actually quite hard to beat a well sorted factory car and this is why the Integra Type-R would easily outhandle the MR2 and was more driver focused. So nowadays I just buy the exact car I want in the first place, well in the case of the 100hp it was simply buying a car that was the most fun I could have for the money. The 100hp was it.

I took a stock ITR and we spent a fair bit of time, money and effort into converting it into a track car. It was a lot quicker in terms of lap time than the standard car but was probably too stiff for public roads [unless they were very smooth!].

My point is that every car is compromised to a greater or lesser degree when it leaves the factory. Some owners will want more performance, others more radical styling. Occasionally, some people are just happy with a new set of alloys! Those who enjoy modifying cars want to address the areas where they feel that their car could be improved upon. It may be a Panda or a Veyron, the desire to improve/personalise is just the same.

Horses for courses, I say

 

[Pandemonium]

I took a stock ITR and we spent a fair bit of time, money and effort into converting it into a track car. It was a lot quicker in terms of lap time than the standard car but was probably too stiff for public roads [unless they were very smooth!].

My point is that every car is compromised to a greater or lesser degree when it leaves the factory. Some owners will want more performance, others more radical styling. Occasionally, some people are just happy with a new set of alloys! Those who enjoy modifying cars want to address the areas where they feel that their car could be improved upon. It may be a Panda or a Veyron, the desire to improve/personalise is just the same.

Horses for courses, I say

The main point that is being made (well the point im making anyway) is not that its pointless to modify any car. The point is that if you have decided to modify a Panda for handling or performance then you should start off with a 100hp and not bother using an Active or Dynamic.

Everybody has their own views and ideas and they can do whatever they want to do with their own cars.

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

The point is that if you have decided to modify a Panda for handling or performance then you should start off with a 100hp and not bother using an Active or Dynamic.

I agree with many of the points that you have made.

Having said that, if I was 17 again [or just young -I'd be greatful for even that!] and a basic Panda etc. was all I could afford to buy and more powerful/larger capacity cars were too expensive to insure, I would still choose to modify it. Primarily, I would make it handle and also to stop as well as possible. It would sound better [to my ears] with an induction kit and exhaust, and look different [in my eyes] with subtle bodywork changes.

Of course, my modifications wouldn't make financial sense but by doing one area at a time, it would be affordable. And yes, the car would possibly be out-performed by the top-of-the-range model. But please remember that I'm 17 and can't afford to start with a 100HP

However, it would be my car, modified to suit my preferences

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

Everybody has their own views and ideas and they can do whatever they want to do with their own cars.

 

[trackdayqueen]

I took a stock ITR and we spent a fair bit of time, money and effort into converting it into a track car. It was a lot quicker in terms of lap time than the standard car but was probably too stiff for public roads [unless they were very smooth!].

Horses for courses, I say

I've been in modded ITR's round the track and tbh it didn't seem as much fun as a relatively stock car. Way too much grip and no moving around on the corners. Lap times obviously are irrelevant on trackdays, though what was funny is that the modded ITR couldn't get anywhere near my standard ITR on track, so it certainly wasn't any quicker even with 888s on, suspension and a fair bit of lightening.

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

...what was funny is that the modded ITR couldn't get anywhere near my standard ITR on track, so it certainly wasn't any quicker even with 888s on, suspension and a fair bit of lightening.

Not wanting to take this off-topic nor to blow my own trumpet, but a well-modified ITR will be quicker than a stock car [providing the driver can get the most out of it]. I know this from being lucky enough to be asked to drive several different cars all on the same day at the same circuit.

You are right though - take away the compromises that Honda made for the general market and it isn't as much "fun". For a front-driver, the rear-end is very mobile

 

[trackdayqueen]

Not wanting to take this off-topic nor to blow my own trumpet, but a well-modified ITR will be quicker than a stock car [providing the driver can get the most out of it]. I know this from being lucky enough to be asked to drive several different cars all on the same day at the same circuit.

You are right though - take away the compromises that Honda made for the general market and it isn't as much "fun". For a front-driver, the rear-end is very mobile

That is very true, but quicker is not always better. I just love the balance of the standard car on RE010s and would never change it.

 

[Pandemonium]

I agree with many of the points that you have made.

Having said that, if I was 17 again [or just young -I'd be greatful for even that!] and a basic Panda etc. was all I could afford to buy and more powerful/larger capacity cars were too expensive to insure, I would still choose to modify it. Primarily, I would make it handle and also to stop as well as possible. It would sound better [to my ears] with an induction kit and exhaust, and look different [in my eyes] with subtle bodywork changes.

Of course, my modifications wouldn't make financial sense but by doing one area at a time, it would be affordable. And yes, the car would possibly be out-performed by the top-of-the-range model. But please remember that I'm 17 and can't afford to start with a 100HP

However, it would be my car, modified to suit my preferences

I disagree with you there slightly. For a start the 100hp isnt a high insurance band car to begin with. The amount of bambinos on this very forum that already own a 100hp before they can even grow a beard will testify to that. Not only that but if you start to modify an Active or Dynamic with performance mods it will rapidly increase the cost of the insurance anyway. So much so that it wouldnt surprise me if a heavily modified Active/Dynamic would be more expensive to insure than a standard 100hp. Of course lots of people dont tell the insurers about the mods but thats clearly wrong.

And as I already pointed out the 100hp isnt that much more expensive than an Active or Dynamic. Not when you consider the cost of mods involved.

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

The amount of bambinos on this very forum that already own a 100hp before they can even grow a beard will testify to that.

Perhaps the Panda comparison isn't such a good one then because as you say, the gap between entry-level and 100HP isn't a huge one [my first car was a 1.0 Nova and there was no way that I could ever buy/insure a GTE]. However, if I was 17 again, I know that I wouldn't be able to afford a 100HP and if I had a Panda Active, I would modify it in the way I stated earlier. As for the insurance implications, there may be an increase but again, this can be spread out over monthly payments. Having said that, may I refer you to your own post in another thread:

My insurance didnt increase because I used a specialist modfied insurance specialist. They allowed upto 3 modifications with no increase in the premium.

Suspension, exhaust, wheels are going onto my Panda Active