Technical Which Panda do I have?

[Richard1940]

Being a person of advanced age, I swore that being able to afford more modern cars I would no longer buy older cars that needed “work “ doing.
So what do I do, buy a Sept 2009 registered Panda Eco 1.1 with 72500 miles on the clock, to use for volunteering work in,sometimes,dirty places, and save the family car.
So, I doubt that the timing belt has been changed, (due at 72,000). Do I do it myself? I’ve read about all there is to read on this forum, so it’s down to my choice. My question is this, how do I find out whether I have Panda2 or Panda3, when I’m looking for replacements, being that the car seems to be on the cusp of the change in 2009.
Also if I do decide to change the belt myself, I would use a timing belt tool kit, to be safe, but all I can see on EBay on the like, are kits suitable for 1.2 engine, Are they the same fitting?
Thanks. Sorry for being a bit long winded.
Richard

 

[koalar]

several minor changes took place in 2009, both engine and suspension

if you use a motor factor or quality online suppler they will check via engine number

as to Mk1,2,3 or Generation 1,2,3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Panda

eBay often transpose the two

so a MK2 part is actually a Gen 2 part confusingly

 

[koalar]

most parts have the fiat part number on them, handy

some sensors have the manufacturers part number on them, as long as the same part is fitted, your golden

 

[09 johno]

Forthe timming tools, the earlier 2009 only needs two locking tools, and angled ramp to lock the camshaft and a bat shaped tool to lock the crank shaft, the pin tool to adjust the belt tensioner is rubbish in most kits and its easier to use long nose pliers or circlip pliers.
you can buy the tools loose for around £20. type 'Fiat 1.1 timing tools'
into ebay and you will see what the parts look like then look for the price and quality you need.
I changed my Cam belt on my 2009 1.1 eco active myself, it took a morning to do as it was the first time I had attempted it, but it could be done in about 1-2 hours with the right tools.
I used this clip as a basic guide even though fits for a 500 the detail is similar.
http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/belt-replacement-guide-fiat-500/

 

[Richard1940]

09 Johno
Many thanks for that. Although it looks like a lot originate in China, I shall have to be careful which I choose.Fingers crossed.
Richard

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

09 Johno
Many thanks for that. Although it looks like a lot originate in China, I shall have to be careful which I choose.Fingers crossed.
Richard

Being of an "older" age myself I too used to be suspicious of the "made in China" logo. However things seem to have changed a great deal in just the last few years and I've made some really good purchases which seem to me to have originally been made in China - although often carrying a brand name implying European or Scandinavian manufacture. Chinese stuff doesn't worry me so much as counterfeit parts these days, so I find a better protection is to buy from trusted, and often local, sources.

Here's a picture of the kit I bought off Ebay to do my Panda's belt:



It seems to be of good quality but I'd take bets that it was originally manufactured in the far east. I agree with 09 johno above that the 2 pin tensioning tool is pretty flimsy and it's all too easy to break off one or both of the pins. I just use my right angled circlip pliers. The other parts are robust and work well.

 

[Richard1940]

Thanks for that,
I’ve found more or less the same one on eBay, although it does say it’s for the 1.2 . Am I correct in thinking it will be the same fitting as for the evo 1.1
Richard

 

[koalar]

09 Johno
Many thanks for that. Although it looks like a lot originate in China, I shall have to be careful which I choose.Fingers crossed.
Richard

something like this ? 09 johno


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283267561987

 

[Richard1940]

That would do exactly, but I’m a bit concerned about the £487.80 postage

Richard

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Where the FIRE engines are concerned, as far as I know, the really early engines, like the 999cc/1 litre engine in my old 1992 Panda Parade didn't require any timing tools at all as the cam sprocket and crank pulley both had timing marks on them which were lined up with marks on the engine casing. These engines had the cam and crank sprockets keyed to their shafts so could only be fitted in one position which made the timing marks relevant.

Then they started making the cam sprocket "free wheeling" - without a slot for the key, so if you slacken the retaining bolt for the cam sprocket the timing reference is lost and can only be retimed by using the locking tools. The crank sprocket has always been keyed. I'm not sure exactly when they started making the keyless cam sprocket engines but they can be easily identified because the cam sprocket has no timing mark on it. I think that the earlier engines with the keyed camshaft can be identified by their square rubber oil filler cap and the cam cover being held on with just 4 bolts. The later spec engine has a round plastic oil filler cap and 8 bolts holding on the cam cover. The Haynes manual seems to support this - by the way the Haynes manual is well worth getting hold of if you don't have one already - By 2009 the sprocket will definitely be keyless so if you slacken the central retaining bolt for the cam sprocket, as recommended for changing the cam belt, you will need a set of timing tools.

One thing to be aware of is that the sprocket retaining bolt is very tight indeed - it needs to be because the drive is transmitted from the sprocket to the camshaft solely because the bolt is done up very tightly, there being no key involved. You must hold the camshaft itself (between the two cam lobes for No1 cylinder there are flats you can use a spanner or other suitable tool on) DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TIGHTEN OR SLACKEN THAT RETAINING BOLT WITH THE CAM LOCKING BAR ENGAGED IN THE SLOT AT THE OTHER END OF THE CAM OR YOU MAY BREAK THE CAMSHAFT.

It's not a bad job to do in comparison to some of the more difficult ones I've done and I think anyone who is a reasonably competent "driveway grease monkey" could manage it. The hardest bit in my opinion is getting a spanner on the two lower bolts which hold part of the engine mount to the front of the engine.

I can strongly recommend Andy Monty's guide to doing this job: https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html There are very small detailed differences between the various versions of the FIRE engine - for instance the position of the coil/coil pack (different coil setups are variously used) - but his guide really covers all you need to know to do the job properly.

By the way, as far as I know, the 1.1 engines were all non interference so even if you make a total Horlicks of it and get the timing dramatically wrong you're not going to stuff valves into pistons. Worst that can happen is you'll end up with a non runner? Even the 1.2 did not become interference until the 69hp version, with it's VVT pulley, was adopted in late 2010/early 2011. I know my 2010 60hp 1.2 is non interference.

 

[koalar]

That would do exactly, but I’m a bit concerned about the £487.80 postage

Richard

give them a message


the postage on their other things is either free or cheap. Looks like they got the decimal point in the wrong place


Poland normally a couple of days

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

By the way Richard, if you are worried about identifying parts for your car try giving the chaps at Shop4parts https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/ a ring. I've bought quite a bit of stuff from them in the past and I can tell you they are very knowledgeable and helpful and don't mind giving telephone advice. Some of their brand names are a bit strange as they source from Italy but I've never had a duff item from them yet. Also they seem to have other stuff not listed on the site so if you're looking for something and it doesn't come up give them a ring anyway and you often find they either have it or can quickly source it - There's a forum discount code too! I don't think it's worth ordering small single items though as you'll incur shipping charges, Shipping is free over £25 (or it was last time I ordered.)

 

[Richard1940]

Kaolar.
Puggit Auld Jock
Many thanks for the advice and info.
Having taken the head off a Hillman Minx and ground in the valves, to rebuilding a Triumph 2000 gearbox and all sorts of things in between, but many, many years ago, it’s much appreciated to have someone ‘ hold your hand’ when you suddenly find you’re doing the same sort of thing again.
Richard

 

[Richard1940]

give them a message


the postage on their other things is either free or cheap. Looks like they got the decimal point in the wrong place


Poland normally a couple of days

Sent them a message through eBay
Quote—- is this postage correct or is it to do with Brexit— unquote

The reply is “ correct, it is to do with brexit.”

So if I have this correct they have to collect our Vat then repay it to our government, so for most small suppliers it is too complicated, or they cannot be bothered, so do not want the business. Hence very large postal charges to discourage us.

That’s life now. Richard.

 

[Yolanda]

Where the FIRE engines are concerned, as far as I know, the really early engines, like the 999cc/1 litre engine in my old 1992 Panda Parade didn't require any timing tools at all as the cam sprocket and crank pulley both had timing marks on them which were lined up with marks on the engine casing. These engines had the cam and crank sprockets keyed to their shafts so could only be fitted in one position which made the timing marks relevant.

Then they started making the cam sprocket "free wheeling" - without a slot for the key, so if you slacken the retaining bolt for the cam sprocket the timing reference is lost and can only be retimed by using the locking tools. The crank sprocket has always been keyed. I'm not sure exactly when they started making the keyless cam sprocket engines but they can be easily identified because the cam sprocket has no timing mark on it. I think that the earlier engines with the keyed camshaft can be identified by their square rubber oil filler cap and the cam cover being held on with just 4 bolts. The later spec engine has a round plastic oil filler cap and 8 bolts holding on the cam cover. The Haynes manual seems to support this - by the way the Haynes manual is well worth getting hold of if you don't have one already - By 2009 the sprocket will definitely be keyless so if you slacken the central retaining bolt for the cam sprocket, as recommended for changing the cam belt, you will need a set of timing tools.

One thing to be aware of is that the sprocket retaining bolt is very tight indeed - it needs to be because the drive is transmitted from the sprocket to the camshaft solely because the bolt is done up very tightly, there being no key involved. You must hold the camshaft itself (between the two cam lobes for No1 cylinder there are flats you can use a spanner or other suitable tool on) DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TIGHTEN OR SLACKEN THAT RETAINING BOLT WITH THE CAM LOCKING BAR ENGAGED IN THE SLOT AT THE OTHER END OF THE CAM OR YOU MAY BREAK THE CAMSHAFT.

It's not a bad job to do in comparison to some of the more difficult ones I've done and I think anyone who is a reasonably competent "driveway grease monkey" could manage it. The hardest bit in my opinion is getting a spanner on the two lower bolts which hold part of the engine mount to the front of the engine.

I can strongly recommend Andy Monty's guide to doing this job: https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html There are very small detailed differences between the various versions of the FIRE engine - for instance the position of the coil/coil pack (different coil setups are variously used) - but his guide really covers all you need to know to do the job properly.

By the way, as far as I know, the 1.1 engines were all non interference so even if you make a total Horlicks of it and get the timing dramatically wrong you're not going to stuff valves into pistons. Worst that can happen is you'll end up with a non runner? Even the 1.2 did not become interference until the 69hp version, with it's VVT pulley, was adopted in late 2010/early 2011. I know my 2010 60hp 1.2 is non interference.

I wonder why Fiat changed to the free wheeling cam shafts sprockets as the earlier type with the key way was so easy to work on.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I wonder why Fiat changed to the free wheeling cam shafts sprockets as the earlier type with the key way was so easy to work on.

Oh yes, most earlier engines from most manufacturers were much easier to time up. However they had relatively crude ignition and fueling systems. Later setups were much more sophisticated. When the fuel mixture being delivered is only somewhere approaching optimal, and even then only under certain conditions, and the spark delivered at "more or less" the ideal time then having the valve timing "approximately" right is good enough. Introduce a modern computerized fueling system which contains a map of the correct fuel delivery under all conditions and then allow it to be "tweeked" in real time by monitoring actual exhaust gas content - for instance the O2 sensor - and couple that to a computer controlled spark which not only follows an internal map in the ECU but is also able to slightly change the timing depending on what the sensors are telling the computer - for instance the knock sensor etc - then you are into a whole new ball game altogether. So now the valve timing starts to become a real factor in contributing to both power and emissions where small differences in when valves are opening and closing will have an, admittedly small, but measurable effect. If you key the cam and crank sprockets to their shafts there is no way to easily achieve a fine adjustment in the relationship between the crankshaft and cam or cams. Take the key away and let the sprocket/sprockets float on their shafts then use accurate locking tools to set the angular relationship between crank and cam/cams up exactly before then locking the sprocket/sprockets to their shafts allows the valve timing to be set up absolutely correctly.

Quite a few engines - my wee Ibiza being one - have no keys on any of the shafts. It's a double overhead cam setup so both cam sprockets and the crank sprocket are slackened and allowed to "float" during a belt change. the new belt is fitted and tensioned before the three sprocket bolts are finally tightened. Although I'm very happy muddling along with our Panda, I "chickened out" when it came to the Ibiza and handed it over to our local VAG specialist - First time in years I've not done one of my cars timing belts, making me feel very old! Also a bit of a shock having to pay modern labour rates!

As an example of how great a difference valve timing can make to exhaust emissions. A couple of years ago my boy's Astra failed it's MOT on the gas test. The car is very old (2007) and well over the 100,000 miles. I was sure it was going to turn out to be O2 sensor or a gasket leak or something similar. He handed the car over to the wee garage in his local town who diagnosed VVT pulley failure. I wasn't at all convinced about their diagnosis so went out for a chat with them. They turned out to be a very small concern who were real enthusiasts (Ford Cortina 1600 E sitting at the back of the garage for a start) and spent some time making their case to me. I was convinced and agreed to let them proceed. They even let me source the parts myself (typical price to do this job would be in the region of £800 or more) and when they stripped the old pulleys off you could plainly see they had been letting the shafts advance and retard and generally "flap about" just as they liked. With the new pulleys fitted it sailed through it's MOT and did the same last year.

 

[koalar]

I wonder why Fiat changed to the free wheeling cam shafts sprockets as the earlier type with the key way was so easy to work on.

I would guess its because it requires one less machining operation

doesn't sound a lot but when you are making tens of millions of engines

 

[Popitinpete]

Where the FIRE engines are concerned, as far as I know, the really early engines, like the 999cc/1 litre engine in my old 1992 Panda Parade didn't require any timing tools at all as the cam sprocket and crank pulley both had timing marks on them which were lined up with marks on the engine casing. These engines had the cam and crank sprockets keyed to their shafts so could only be fitted in one position which made the timing marks relevant.

Then they started making the cam sprocket "free wheeling" - without a slot for the key, so if you slacken the retaining bolt for the cam sprocket the timing reference is lost and can only be retimed by using the locking tools. The crank sprocket has always been keyed. I'm not sure exactly when they started making the keyless cam sprocket engines but they can be easily identified because the cam sprocket has no timing mark on it. I think that the earlier engines with the keyed camshaft can be identified by their square rubber oil filler cap and the cam cover being held on with just 4 bolts. The later spec engine has a round plastic oil filler cap and 8 bolts holding on the cam cover. The Haynes manual seems to support this - by the way the Haynes manual is well worth getting hold of if you don't have one already - By 2009 the sprocket will definitely be keyless so if you slacken the central retaining bolt for the cam sprocket, as recommended for changing the cam belt, you will need a set of timing tools.

One thing to be aware of is that the sprocket retaining bolt is very tight indeed - it needs to be because the drive is transmitted from the sprocket to the camshaft solely because the bolt is done up very tightly, there being no key involved. You must hold the camshaft itself (between the two cam lobes for No1 cylinder there are flats you can use a spanner or other suitable tool on) DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TIGHTEN OR SLACKEN THAT RETAINING BOLT WITH THE CAM LOCKING BAR ENGAGED IN THE SLOT AT THE OTHER END OF THE CAM OR YOU MAY BREAK THE CAMSHAFT.

It's not a bad job to do in comparison to some of the more difficult ones I've done and I think anyone who is a reasonably competent "driveway grease monkey" could manage it. The hardest bit in my opinion is getting a spanner on the two lower bolts which hold part of the engine mount to the front of the engine.

I can strongly recommend Andy Monty's guide to doing this job: https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html There are very small detailed differences between the various versions of the FIRE engine - for instance the position of the coil/coil pack (different coil setups are variously used) - but his guide really covers all you need to know to do the job properly.

By the way, as far as I know, the 1.1 engines were all non interference so even if you make a total Horlicks of it and get the timing dramatically wrong you're not going to stuff valves into pistons. Worst that can happen is you'll end up with a non runner? Even the 1.2 did not become interference until the 69hp version, with it's VVT pulley, was adopted in late 2010/early 2011. I know my 2010 60hp 1.2 is non interference.

Hi puggit

Where the FIRE engines are concerned, as far as I know, the really early engines, like the 999cc/1 litre engine in my old 1992 Panda Parade didn't require any timing tools at all as the cam sprocket and crank pulley both had timing marks on them which were lined up with marks on the engine casing. These engines had the cam and crank sprockets keyed to their shafts so could only be fitted in one position which made the timing marks relevant.

Then they started making the cam sprocket "free wheeling" - without a slot for the key, so if you slacken the retaining bolt for the cam sprocket the timing reference is lost and can only be retimed by using the locking tools. The crank sprocket has always been keyed. I'm not sure exactly when they started making the keyless cam sprocket engines but they can be easily identified because the cam sprocket has no timing mark on it. I think that the earlier engines with the keyed camshaft can be identified by their square rubber oil filler cap and the cam cover being held on with just 4 bolts. The later spec engine has a round plastic oil filler cap and 8 bolts holding on the cam cover. The Haynes manual seems to support this - by the way the Haynes manual is well worth getting hold of if you don't have one already - By 2009 the sprocket will definitely be keyless so if you slacken the central retaining bolt for the cam sprocket, as recommended for changing the cam belt, you will need a set of timing tools.

One thing to be aware of is that the sprocket retaining bolt is very tight indeed - it needs to be because the drive is transmitted from the sprocket to the camshaft solely because the bolt is done up very tightly, there being no key involved. You must hold the camshaft itself (between the two cam lobes for No1 cylinder there are flats you can use a spanner or other suitable tool on) DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TIGHTEN OR SLACKEN THAT RETAINING BOLT WITH THE CAM LOCKING BAR ENGAGED IN THE SLOT AT THE OTHER END OF THE CAM OR YOU MAY BREAK THE CAMSHAFT.

It's not a bad job to do in comparison to some of the more difficult ones I've done and I think anyone who is a reasonably competent "driveway grease monkey" could manage it. The hardest bit in my opinion is getting a spanner on the two lower bolts which hold part of the engine mount to the front of the engine.

I can strongly recommend Andy Monty's guide to doing this job: https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html There are very small detailed differences between the various versions of the FIRE engine - for instance the position of the coil/coil pack (different coil setups are variously used) - but his guide really covers all you need to know to do the job properly.

By the way, as far as I know, the 1.1 engines were all non interference so even if you make a total Horlicks of it and get the timing dramatically wrong you're not going to stuff valves into pistons. Worst that can happen is you'll end up with a non runner? Even the 1.2 did not become interference until the 69hp version, with it's VVT pulley, was adopted in late 2010/early 2011. I know my 2010 60hp 1.2 is non interference.

Hi puggit, is there any need to take the cam pulley off? If the cranks locked with the tool and the camshaft is locked with the tool isn't it just a case of slackening the tensioner then getting the belt off? What is the need to get the cam wheel off?

Cheers

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi puggit

Hi puggit, is there any need to take the cam pulley off? If the cranks locked with the tool and the camshaft is locked with the tool isn't it just a case of slackening the tensioner then getting the belt off? What is the need to get the cam wheel off?

Cheers

Hi Pete, There's been a lot of "chat" and opinions on whether you need to slacken the cam sprocket retaining bolt - by the way you don't need to take the sprocket/pulley off completely, it's just a matter of slackening the bolt a half turn or so to allow the sprocket/pulley to spin freely on the end of the shaft.

I was very interested to investigate this when I did both our own Panda and my boy's Punto. You can read about it in the post I made here: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/beckys-timing-belt-the-ongoing-saga.459903/ The big "thing" is that if someone before you has slackened the bolt, so freeing up the sprocket/pulley from the camshaft, and not been too fussy or just plain got it wrong, when retightening the bolt then the timing will never be right. However you can check it out by locking up the crankshaft with it's locking tool and then seeing if the angled bar locking tool will engage with the slot in the end of the camshaft. Have a read of what I wrote and it should make sense? I was initially a bit worried that different makes of belt could introduce manufacturing intolerances which could cause problems but I now think these belts are all produced to such tight specification as to be identical. Please feel free to get back on here and ask about anything you're not clear on.

Good luck. Jock.

PS. By the way, it's Pugglt (with an "L") - as in "old, knackered and a bit daft" - a word I learned from a Geordie gardener I used to know.

PPS. Just one very minor thing to look out for. When you're almost finished and you're putting the crankshaft fan belt pulley back on (some call it a "phonic" pulley because it has the timing "pips" around it's circumference) be sure to look out for the wee pip on the face of the bottom timing belt sprocket and line the wee hole on the phonic pulley up with it. The retaining bolts are spaced equidistant but the hole only lines up in the one position.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Pete. Another wee follow up to my last post. The engine ECU learns the angular relationship between the camshaft and crankshaft when the engine is running - which it gets from the sensors on both - and stores this info. If anything alters this relationship (like slackening and retightening the cam sprocket bolt I think) the ECU notices and will light up the engine warning light - MIL - on the dash. When you interrogate the ECU you'll often find it's logged a fault code for a missfire and you can waste lots of time and money looking for this non existent missfire! If the MIL lights up after a belt change, to let the ECU learn the new relationship between the two shafts, you need to do a "Phonic Wheel Relearn" which requires a good scanner, like Multiecuscan or The Fiat dealer tool. However I found that neither my Panda nor my boy's Punto needed this done following the renewal of their belts and I think it's because that cam sprocket bolt was never touched on either engine. From other posts people have made where their light has come on, it would seem it doesn't come on immediately on starting the engine but usually after a bit of driving around at main road speeds.