Wheel alignment question

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Wheel alignment question

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Is it possible and common for front wheels to have a different alignment?

An example: could my front left be 1mm toe-in and my right 2mm toe-in.

I know wheels are connected through the steering rack.

The car I'm thinking about only has toe-in and out, other adjustments like camber are not possible.
 
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I'll leave this here...short answer is yes it's possible toe in/out should be adjustable camber maybe mildly adjustable as well depending on the design of the strut.
 
Is it possible and common for front wheels to have a different alignment?

An example: could my front left be 1mm toe-in and my right 2mm toe-in.

I know wheels are connected through the steering rack.

The car I'm thinking about only has toe-in and out, other adjustments like camber are not possible.
Tracking very rarely stays bang on to how it’s adjusted, 1 pothole or glancing a curb can easily knock it out a few degrees. I don’t normally worry about mine unless the steering wheel isn’t dead center when driving or the tyres aren’t wearing evenly. Good practice to get it checked when having new tyres fitted
 
Is it possible and common for front wheels to have a different alignment?

An example: could my front left be 1mm toe-in and my right 2mm toe-in.

I know wheels are connected through the steering rack.

The car I'm thinking about only has toe-in and out, other adjustments like camber are not possible.
You are correct that the two wheels are conected, and in practice, when driving, usually they will try to centralise themselves, so the running toe will equalise.
However, alignment should always be done with the steering wheel pointing straight ahead, to centralise the rack. As the wheels turn for corners, each wheel will turn different degrees, to allow for the outer wheel taking a larger curve. If the rack is not centralised, the wheel angles will be incorrect. The wheel with the greater incorrect reading will tend to show the most wear, as its angle on corners will be the most incorrect.
Measurements are taken from this central position, resulting in possibly different readings each side, then proper adjustments should be made to align each wheel, to maintian the straight ahead.
A general rule was that rear wheel drive cars had toe in, and front wheel drive had toe out. The reason for this is that with RWD, as the car is pushed, the front wheels have a tendency to turn outwards, so the toe in is supposed to compensate for this, accounting for the play in suspension bushes and flexibility of the tyre. As we moved to radial tyres, toe in/out changed. A FWD car tends to pull its wheels inwards as the wheels are driven, so used to have toe out. Of course, nothing is as simple as that, and manufacturers have to test and calculate accounting for suspension bushes, movement on bumps, vehicle loading, etc.
Excessive toe in tends to make the car turn into corners more abruptly, but with the wheels not working as a team, grip can be lost sooner. With excessive toe out, turning into corners becomes vague, as the outer wheel has to move further before it starts the affect the turn. This can be a little worrying as hedges, or oncoming traffic seem to come at you, while the car refuses to change direction.
Handling is the best reason to get them aligned properly, uneven or excessive wear is the usual iincentive to fix it, as it hurts the pocket.
Never try to move the steering wheel to correct it not pointing ahead. This used to be common practice, and still occasionally it is done, makign the alignment process longer, and more expensive. Most cars nowadays seem to have a master spline to prevent this.
Sadly, even with correctly aligned steering, many cars will still pull to one side. Suspension geometry is complicated, and different designs and setups can tend to pull more or less than others. Rear wheel alignment can affect the pull, and many Panda 169s appear to be afflicted, due to poorly aligned hub carriers on the rear axles. Correcting this needs patience, and lots of experimentation with shims. Sadly, aftermarket axle manufacturers have copied their sample so exactly, theirs are misaligned too.
 
Tracking very rarely stays bang on to how it’s adjusted, 1 pothole or glancing a curb can easily knock it out a few degrees. I don’t normally worry about mine unless the steering wheel isn’t dead center when driving or the tyres aren’t wearing evenly. Good practice to get it checked when having new tyres fitted
I like learning new things...so I'm aligning my wheels by trial and error and learning as I go.

It's a pain in the freaking ass lol.

But also interesting. I make notes to record the changes and take pictures so I can backtrack if necessary.

I've burnt through a couple of old cheap tyres and will probably get some part worns on there to continue the journey.
 
You are correct that the two wheels are conected, and in practice, when driving, usually they will try to centralise themselves, so the running toe will equalise.
However, alignment should always be done with the steering wheel pointing straight ahead, to centralise the rack. As the wheels turn for corners, each wheel will turn different degrees, to allow for the outer wheel taking a larger curve. If the rack is not centralised, the wheel angles will be incorrect. The wheel with the greater incorrect reading will tend to show the most wear, as its angle on corners will be the most incorrect.
Measurements are taken from this central position, resulting in possibly different readings each side, then proper adjustments should be made to align each wheel, to maintian the straight ahead.
A general rule was that rear wheel drive cars had toe in, and front wheel drive had toe out. The reason for this is that with RWD, as the car is pushed, the front wheels have a tendency to turn outwards, so the toe in is supposed to compensate for this, accounting for the play in suspension bushes and flexibility of the tyre. As we moved to radial tyres, toe in/out changed. A FWD car tends to pull its wheels inwards as the wheels are driven, so used to have toe out. Of course, nothing is as simple as that, and manufacturers have to test and calculate accounting for suspension bushes, movement on bumps, vehicle loading, etc.
Excessive toe in tends to make the car turn into corners more abruptly, but with the wheels not working as a team, grip can be lost sooner. With excessive toe out, turning into corners becomes vague, as the outer wheel has to move further before it starts the affect the turn. This can be a little worrying as hedges, or oncoming traffic seem to come at you, while the car refuses to change direction.
Handling is the best reason to get them aligned properly, uneven or excessive wear is the usual iincentive to fix it, as it hurts the pocket.
Never try to move the steering wheel to correct it not pointing ahead. This used to be common practice, and still occasionally it is done, makign the alignment process longer, and more expensive. Most cars nowadays seem to have a master spline to prevent this.
Sadly, even with correctly aligned steering, many cars will still pull to one side. Suspension geometry is complicated, and different designs and setups can tend to pull more or less than others. Rear wheel alignment can affect the pull, and many Panda 169s appear to be afflicted, due to poorly aligned hub carriers on the rear axles. Correcting this needs patience, and lots of experimentation with shims. Sadly, aftermarket axle manufacturers have copied their sample so exactly, theirs are misaligned too.
This is good stuff and worthy of a detailed read over several times.

Logically I new this, but seeing it in words brings it home.

So I am going to need to adjust individual wheels. I'm fairly sure my front are within tolerance between 0-2mm toe in. But I'm thinking I'll get more wear on one side than another. I have no evidence of that at the moment, but there's nothing really simple about alignment lol.

My steering wheel isn't 100% centred, it's not far off but needs thinking about.

The car can only be adjusted for toe. It seems you have experience or understanding of using shims to alter camber or something else? I'd be interested to know the general process of using shims. I've looked on YouTube but can't find useful info.
 
I'm glad his came up again as I meant to reply before . Are you certain your front wheel drive car should be toe in at front wheels? That would be unusual
 
One other thing, with this car I get a little squeal when turning a tight right, but not tight left. As both wheels are toe-in, I think this means the left wheel needs any adjustment, is this correct?
 
I'm glad his came up again as I meant to reply before . Are you certain your front wheel drive car should be toe in at front wheels? That would be unusual
It's a Grande Punto, and the last time I checked the manual I recall it wanted 1mm toe-in, per front wheel.

The tolerance was +/- 1mm. So this would mean 0-2mm toe-in, should be ok.
 
This is good stuff and worthy of a detailed read over several times.

Logically I new this, but seeing it in words brings it home.

So I am going to need to adjust individual wheels. I'm fairly sure my front are within tolerance between 0-2mm toe in. But I'm thinking I'll get more wear on one side than another. I have no evidence of that at the moment, but there's nothing really simple about alignment lol.

My steering wheel isn't 100% centred, it's not far off but needs thinking about.

The car can only be adjusted for toe. It seems you have experience or understanding of using shims to alter camber or something else? I'd be interested to know the general process of using shims. I've looked on YouTube but can't find useful info.
The front is only designed for toe adjustment. The track rods should be equal length, which should put the wheel straight. A professional using laser equipment will adjust each side minutely to get the correct alignment. Trial & error could take forever. A professional alignment will pay for itself in the first set of tyres. Make sure the track rods are easy to adjust, freeing off their locknuts if necessary, to save costs.
Somewhere on here, is an explanation of how to do the alignment with string. Very useful, if a search can find it, but needs a flat area, and lots of itme, but can be very accurate.

Nothing on the front end to adjust with shims.
The rear end of a Panda has the hubs mounted on plates, with four studs. Those plates shold be parallel with the car, or maybe toe in slightly (don't know the spec, determined by Fiat), but the left one tends to toe in more than it should. Shims on some of the studs can correct this, but needs some understanding of the effects, as it will also adjust the camber of the wheel. (The way a wheel may lean in or out) No idea how the rear of Punto is set up, long time since I've been near one.

Mostly front toe is parallel these days.
 
It's a Grande Punto, and the last time I checked the manual I recall it wanted 1mm toe-in, per front wheel.

The tolerance was +/- 1mm. So this should mean 0-2mm toe-in, should be ok.

I think on your other thread you said you read toe was -1mm ie negative toe
Minus or negative toe can mean toe out

Post 2 diagram shows -toe(negative toe) as toe out
 
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I think on your other thread you said you read toe was -1mm
- toe can mean toe out

It is very confusing
Ah, sorry, I try to be clear, and often go back and edit to hopefully make things easier to understand.

I've changed the alignment, at least once, maybe twice as I learn the process. So I don't think there's any useful information on that older thread.
 
Post 2 diagram shows - toe as toe out
I understand now. I make notes as I change things, and in my notes I've used -toe as toe in!

I've never been near the type of equipment that would print the diagram in post 2!

I will check the manual again, I need to be sure the car does indeed want 1mm toe in.
 
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Ah, sorry, I try to be clear, and often go back and edit to hopefully make things easier to understand.

I've changed the alignment, at least once, maybe twice as I learn the process. So I don't think there's any useful information on that older thread.

No problem ,
It would be a good idea to find out the actual alignment spec for 100% sure ...if it's negative toe that is toe out.

I also meant to mention people you are aware of using false number plates.....dodging road tax(not ideal)
Dodging driving fines.
No mot=potentially dangerous vehicle.
No insurance(absolutely dreadful) they could seriously injure or kill someone persons family would be financially destroyed.
Stay away from those people.
 
No problem ,
It would be a good idea to find out the actual alignment spec for 100% sure ...if it's negative toe that is toe out.

I also meant to mention people you are aware of using false number plates.....dodging road tax(not ideal)
Dodging driving fines.
No mot=potentially dangerous vehicle.
No insurance(absolutely dreadful) they could seriously injure or kill someone persons family would be financially destroyed.

A temporary discussion tangent.

This is one of my neighbours. I did report one of his cars for having no tax / MOT, it was just sat on the road, not moving. Not too long after it was gone.

I considered reporting his illegal number plate but didn't know how.
 
The front is only designed for toe adjustment. The track rods should be equal length, which should put the wheel straight. A professional using laser equipment will adjust each side minutely to get the correct alignment. Trial & error could take forever. A professional alignment will pay for itself in the first set of tyres.

I haven't ruled out using a professional alignment service. I am somewhat enjoying the process of learning to align the car, that's why I'm doing it. I could get it aligned for £40, its not that much money.

Make sure the track rods are easy to adjust, freeing off their locknuts if necessary, to save costs.
Somewhere on here, is an explanation of how to do the alignment with string. Very useful, if a search can find it, but needs a flat area, and lots of itme, but can be very accurate.

I've previously put on new rod ends and cleaned the threads, and cleaned the locking nuts. So I can adjust the tracking very quickly with the tyres on.

Nothing on the front end to adjust with shims.
The rear end of a Panda has the hubs mounted on plates, with four studs. Those plates shold be parallel with the car, or maybe toe in slightly (don't know the spec, determined by Fiat), but the left one tends to toe in more than it should. Shims on some of the studs can correct this, but needs some understanding of the effects, as it will also adjust the camber of the wheel. (The way a wheel may lean in or out) No idea how the rear of Punto is set up, long time since I've been near one.

I've had new suspension in the rear, but the bushes aren't so good, so it probably leans in? I can leave this for another time.

Mostly front toe is parallel these days.

Is that what the manual says? Or does experience make you think this?
 
I've just checked the manual and its kind of confusing...I've posted a picture of what it says.

The front wheels do want toe-in.

Screenshot 2024-11-07 120901.png


It appears I need to be looking for the front wheels to be for example:

Both toe-in but one could be 0.7mm and the other 0.3mm. Total front toe-in 1mm

or

Both toe-in but one could be 1.2mm and the other 0.8mm. To give a total front toe- in of 2mm.

I suppose its possible I could have a slight toe-out in one compensated by toe-in on the other, or am i reading this wrong?
 
I don't know the manual you have found but when I looked on line a laser alignment manufacture states total negative toe of -0.26 degrees
 
And total toe does not mean for each wheel it mean for both wheels
ie total toe -1 means each wheel -0.5
 
I don't know the manual you have found but when I looked on line a laser alignment manufacture states total negative toe of -0.26 degrees
Its just the one from the downloads section on this website.

And total toe does not mean for each wheel it mean for both wheels
ie total toe -1 means each wheel -0.5

Yes, i hadn't understood this properly. I will be adjusting again with this thread in mind, not sure when, or what exactly I'll do yet.
 
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