What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Is it worth mentioning here that trying to achieve "ride height" on the rear suspension (ie. same as would be when the weight of the vehicle is on the rear wheels) by jacking up on the rear suspension (we seem to be talking spring pans here?) will only be valid if the distance from the rear suspension arm pivot point to the spring pan is the same as the distance from this pivot point to the centre line of the stub axle (simple principle of levers?) Commonly the spring pan is nearer the pivot so you won't achieve as much spring compression. Also, you will have to jack both sides at the same time to achieve the same distribution of vehicle weight as in normal running conditions. Much better to measure the normal ride height before you start (axle to wheel arch) and then simply jack up the arm on the relevant side before final tightening of the mounting. As to where you jack it? I quite like to apply the hand brake firmly - front wheels will already be chocked - place a wooden block on the jack saddle and jack on the drum, disc or hub itself depending on design. Suspension varies so much in design that it can sometimes be difficult to jack effectively on the arm but you can always jack on the drum, disc or hub. Make sure the handbrake is on tight first though if you're going with the drum or disc to stop it rolling and "spitting" the jack out!

Edit. Oh dear, you didn't take the measurement before starting the job? Well stick a tape measure in your pocket and go looking for a parked one. You can measure it at the kerbside very quickly but be ready for an "interesting" conversation if the owner is nearby!

 

[vexorg]

As to where you jack it? I quite like to apply the hand brake firmly - front wheels will already be chocked - place a wooden block on the jack saddle and jack on the drum, disc or hub itself depending on design.

Sorry jock, I'd disagree there, I'd never jack on the drum or disk of a car. might be safe, might not, I wouldn't take the risk of warping something.

Edit. Oh dear, you didn't take the measurement before starting the job? Well stick a tape measure in your pocket and go looking for a parked one. You can measure it at the kerbside very quickly but be ready for an "interesting" conversation if the owner is nearby!

I kinda did, then had a "D'oh!" moment, as the new height on the wheels was higher with new springs that weren't tired, and not broken!!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Sorry jock, I'd disagree there, I'd never jack on the drum or disk of a car. might be safe, might not, I wouldn't take the risk of warping something.

Good point. You're right of course but on the very rare occasion I've done it I've got away with it - So far anyway. This isn't to say I make a habit of doing it. On reflection, I was thinking that many disks aren't secured to the hub unless the wheel is on and the nuts/studs tight which would be a big problem unless you put a couple of wheel nuts on to hold it, and, of course, you're going to need the brake pedal chocked down if you were doing this exercise on a front hub. So, although I've done it I probably shouldn't be encouraging others. Much appreciate you making me think about this.

I kinda did, then had a "D'oh!" moment, as the new height on the wheels was higher with new springs that weren't tired, and not broken!!

That, of course, makes a bit of a nonsense of it all. Mind you, I don't think this is "super critical" as long as you get it somewhere near so it takes most of the twist out of the bush. Probably a few mm difference won't be of great concern, after all it's designed to twist in service? Of course, being a perfectionist I'd want it "dead on"

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The main concern I would have, is that if it’s that rusty you don’t trust the rear spring pan to hold the weight of the car on axle stands or a Jack then the car probably shouldn’t be on the road given that it’s this part that supports the weight of the back end of the car. A speed bump at speed would put way more force through the pan than lifting it on the rear spring pan when the weight of the car will just transfer through to the spring anyway.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Back to the theme of being grumpy or not grumpy. I've been worried about Mrs J's breathing when she's asleep. She seems to snore nearly all the time and I sometimes wake up when I need the loo - which is quite frequent, prostate don't you know! - to find her either not breathing or just barely taking a breath. She, of course, is unaware because when she does awaken she's still breathing so thinks everything is all right! Anyway, a month or so ago, I finally got her to come along to the doctor with me and we discussed her symptoms and the doc decided she probably has sleep apnea and should be refered to the sleep apnea clinic. They got back to us and it's two years before she can be seen! Then, if they decide it's necessary, she has to go for a night's observed sleep to diagnose future treatment. They wouldn't say how much longer the wait for the "observed sleep" might be. She could be dead by then!

So we've paid for her to be seen privately (not all that expensive I was surprised to find) and she was given a monitor with various sensors which she has to wear for a night. It records "stuff" while she sleeps. We sent it back to their lab just a few days ago and just today, at lunch time, she got the results back. Moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea diagnosed, please ring a.s.a.p. to make an appointment for, initially, a telephone consultation to prescribe treatment.

The report ran to several pages and described everything I had observed. Looks like they'll probably be proscribing a breathing assistance machine. Her sister already has one of these so she's not feeling too "spooked" at the prospect and I'm greatly relieved that something is being done at last. So there you go my dear, I'm not just scaremongering after all! Wondering what the machine will cost me, don't suppose the NHS will supply as we've bypassed the system?

 

[bugsymike]

Back to the theme of being grumpy or not grumpy. I've been worried about Mrs J's breathing when she's asleep. She seems to snore nearly all the time and I sometimes wake up when I need the loo - which is quite frequent, prostate don't you know! - to find her either not breathing or just barely taking a breath. She, of course, is unaware because when she does awaken she's still breathing so thinks everything is all right! Anyway, a month or so ago, I finally got her to come along to the doctor with me and we discussed her symptoms and the doc decided she probably has sleep apnea and should be refered to the sleep apnea clinic. They got back to us and it's two years before she can be seen! Then, if they decide it's necessary, she has to go for a night's observed sleep to diagnose future treatment. They wouldn't say how much longer the wait for the "observed sleep" might be. She could be dead by then!

So we've paid for her to be seen privately (not all that expensive I was surprised to find) and she was given a monitor with various sensors which she has to wear for a night. It records "stuff" while she sleeps. We sent it back to their lab just a few days ago and just today, at lunch time, she got the results back. Moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea diagnosed, please ring a.s.a.p. to make an appointment for, initially, a telephone consultation to prescribe treatment.

The report ran to several pages and described everything I had observed. Looks like they'll probably be proscribing a breathing assistance machine. Her sister already has one of these so she's not feeling too "spooked" at the prospect and I'm greatly relieved that something is being done at last. So there you go my dear, I'm not just scaremongering after all! Wondering what the machine will cost me, don't suppose the NHS will supply as we've bypassed the system?

So they didn't find any feathers from your pillow
My second wife used to snore really loudly and as at the time I went to bed slightly later than her, I found I could say loudly "Good night Darling", which would cause her to stir but not wake and the snoring would stop for 10 minutes which was all I needed to drop off to a point were nothing would wake me till morning. Must be the clear conscience.
By the way her issue stopped when she had her Adenoids removed, it seemed it is one of the symptoms.
My oldest daughter used to sleep so quietly as a baby that I often used to hold my hand just by her mouth so I could feel her breath, just to be sure she was OK.

 

[vexorg]

The main concern I would have, is that if it’s that rusty you don’t trust the rear spring pan to hold the weight of the car on axle stands or a Jack then the car probably shouldn’t be on the road given that it’s this part that supports the weight of the back end of the car.

No, The weight would be spread over the spring, not a sharp point or edge of the stand or jack. If i had someting to hand that would have spread the load evenly then yes on the bottom of the spring pan.

I've bent thing before, even with wood on the jack, so unless it looks chunky enough then I'm just overly cautious.

 

[StevenRB45]

Having also bent things in the past...I'd agree it's usually cheaper to be cautious than remorseful.

Especially if it were to move slightly as happened to me when some unseen gravel under an opposite tyre shifted while going up and the thing moved left rather than forwards or back...and you end up applying force where you didn't want to.

 

[portland_bill]

Photos would say otherwise...

The issue is that given how prone to rust these cars are, and that the spring seats are a common failurepoint, I didn't want to put the jack or axle stand on the spring seats, so the only real area was the box section, or chunker joint part between seat and box section.

I dont like to bodge things like the youtube monkeys do.

So you are replacing springs and shocks, whilst afraid to support on the spring pans.
The mind boggles.

 

[portland_bill]

My oldest daughter used to sleep so quietly as a baby that I often used to hold my hand just by her mouth so I could feel her breath, just to be sure she was OK.

I'm told I sleep almost silently.
When we first got together, my partner used to wake me in the night, because she was frightened I'd died.
She, however, is at best audible, and often loud.
Recently, due to heart condition, she developed fluid on the lungs, and started to gurgle. We've had a 3-day hospital stay, then home treatment with an IV drip for three days, and two hospital clinic visits, of 4-5 hours each. Seems to be stable now, but with additional drugs to take. We're up to ten each morning now, takes a little longer to fill the weekly pill box each Sunday.
Although she now sleeps downstairs, and I'm upstairs, I can still hear her normal breathing. I can also hear the cat coming in through the cat flap, and the quiet footsteps up the stairs, then take her by surprise by speaking to her just as she arrives at the bedroom doorway. Once asleep though, I hear nothing.

 

[The Panda Nut]

No, The weight would be spread over the spring, not a sharp point or edge of the stand or jack. If i had someting to hand that would have spread the load evenly then yes on the bottom of the spring pan.

I've bent thing before, even with wood on the jack, so unless it looks chunky enough then I'm just overly cautious.

Also worth bearing in mind the spring pan is designed to take major forces in only one direction. I jack under the pans but it makes me nervous of damaging it. It should be OK with a spring in to spread the load. In the Seat Leon handbook it said dont jack there.

 

[bugsymike]

Also worth bearing in mind the spring pan is designed to take major forces in only one direction. I jack under the pans but it makes me nervous of damaging it. It should be OK with a spring in to spread the load. In the Seat Leon handbook it said dont jack there.

When using garage jacks I have no concern lifting under the spring pan as it is a load bearing structure, so if it deformed under taking the weight of one corner of a vehicle it obviously no longer has the structural integrity it it started life designed for. However my jacks to have a firm rubber pad they came with which is kinder than some
I will say many vehicles when looking underneath I can see have been jacked up under the centre of the beam against manufacturers advice and are distorted.
Life was much simpler in the old days of RWD as you knew lifting under the diff was a strong point.

 

[vexorg]

So you are replacing springs and shocks, whilst afraid to support on the spring pans.
The mind boggles.

Yes, for the reason given. I dont have faith in the quality of italian steel.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

When using garage jacks I have no concern lifting under the spring pan as it is a load bearing structure, so if it deformed under taking the weight of one corner of a vehicle it obviously no longer has the structural integrity it it started life designed for. However my jacks to have a firm rubber pad they came with which is kinder than some
I will say many vehicles when looking underneath I can see have been jacked up under the centre of the beam against manufacturers advice and are distorted.
Life was much simpler in the old days of RWD as you knew lifting under the diff was a strong point.

I used to do that when I was younger Mike, as it was common practice and the other man all did it. Then one day I had a problem. It was an axle with a removable steel backplate - which you could remove to see inside - and I'd caught the edge of it with one of the "teeth" on the edge of the saddle. Didn't realize I'd done it. Customer came back next day very cross because his nice new drive now had an oil stain on it. The boss docked the price of the cover and debited my bonus time card that day with the job time! Not a good day and I've tended to not jack anything on the rear axle from that day and I'd never jack a torsion beam type in the middle.

 

[vexorg]

I've tended to not jack anything on the rear axle from that day and I'd never jack a torsion beam type in the middle.

The citroen has big warning stickers across the rear axle about do not jack or tow from here

 

[StevenRB45]

The citroen has big warning stickers across the rear axle about do not jack or tow from here

If memory serves that's due to the Crossbar being a torsion bar rather than "structural" it's hollow and meant to flex to provide a semi independent rear suspension set up.

If you stick a jack in the middle you'll be giving yourself permanent positive rear camber.

 

[StevenRB45]

I need to know what this is...

Turned up while I was at work, they've knocked the stables down opposite and are clearing the land...wonder if they are going to build a garage.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I need to know what this is...

View attachment 449834

Turned up while I was at work, they've knocked the stables down opposite and are clearing the land...wonder if they are going to build a garage.

Check under the slabs for bodies before they concrete it over?

 

[bugsymike]

Check under the slabs for bodies before they concrete it over?

Looks like a skip to me
Mind you whats under the tarp may be also
Is that a boot spoiler ?

 

[StevenRB45]

Perhaps I've seen one of these burbling round the village.

But I thought it lived in a garage behind the pub.. although that may be a T350...

Although it'll probably be a knackered Mazda RX8