What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[StevenRB45]

You would have thought so but......
I think this Citroen speak for we know we have a problem but we are not accepting liability!


Home > CITROEN > C5

CITROEN C5 – PARKING BRAKE MAY FAIL​

CITROEN C5 ( 18/12/2009 – 17/03/2010) DEFECT: It has been identified that due to the Non-Conformity of the handbrake adjustment system in the handbrake mechanism it is possible that there can be a reduction in the efficiency of the parking brake.

---

Remedy: Recall all affected vehicles for the replacement of the handbrake lever mechanism.

Sounds more like a failed adjuster than the anything to do with the discs.

 

[bugsymike]

Sounds more like a failed adjuster than the anything to do with the discs.

Sounds more like a failed adjuster than the anything to do with the discs.

There are several instance on the internet regarding this, not just Citroen , if there wasn't an issue why would manufacturers go to the cost of fixing it with electronic handbrake.
Even after a short run if you put your hand on a front or rear brake disc after going down the hills near here, they are more than a little warm, so as they cool down and the iron disc contracts the grip of the brake pads reduces .

 

[Cheest]

Prop shaft/half shaft, yeah, I read that wrong. I've always managed to catch the U-joint in a prop shaft before it became a bad day. Almost was too late with the front axle on the Jeep. My wife's Chrysler Le Baron was an eater of CV joints. I got where I could replace an axle in my driveway in less than an hour.

As far as room under the hood/bonnet of an American Land Yacht, between 1975 and the introduction of fuel injection, with all the emission equipment, that room was a myth. At least on this side of the pond. We used to say that you could drop a dime on top of the engine and it would never hit the ground. The same did not apply to light duty trucks because they were exempt from the emission rules. For awhile, anyway. The cars were dogs. I think the fastest accelerating American vehicle in 1976 was the Chevy Suburban 2500 with the 454 big block V8. It was considered a light duty truck. One car mag wrote that if you wanted a vehicle that accelerated, you had to buy a 3/4 ton station wagon.

I only mentioned the SM because of the three Citroens in Kane County Illannoy, one is that SM. The others are 2CVs. One of those is a Charleston.

 

[bugsymike]

Prop shaft/half shaft, yeah, I read that wrong. I've always managed to catch the U-joint in a prop shaft before it became a bad day. Almost was too late with the front axle on the Jeep. My wife's Chrysler Le Baron was an eater of CV joints. I got where I could replace an axle in my driveway in less than an hour.

As far as room under the hood/bonnet of an American Land Yacht, between 1975 and the introduction of fuel injection, with all the emission equipment, that room was a myth. At least on this side of the pond. We used to say that you could drop a dime on top of the engine and it would never hit the ground. The same did not apply to light duty trucks because they were exempt from the emission rules. For awhile, anyway. The cars were dogs. I think the fastest accelerating American vehicle in 1976 was the Chevy Suburban 2500 with the 454 big block V8. It was considered a light duty truck. One car mag wrote that if you wanted a vehicle that accelerated, you had to buy a 3/4 ton station wagon.

I only mentioned the SM because of the three Citroens in Kane County Illannoy, one is that SM. The others are 2CVs. One of those is a Charleston.

It was neglect on my behalf, the UJs that actually dropped the prop on the road, it was in the days of my youth, when the accelerator pedal was an on/off switch . The 1964 MGB Roadster I paid £90 for and sold it for £50 ( another car I should have kept)
Pre 69 were the American cars I lusted after, though my pockets were not and still not that deep thanks to two ex wives, so the only one I had was a 1965 Chrysler Valiant with a slant six and a Torqueflite auto box that was shot, I sold that for £20 not realise the value of the number plate over here.
A friend had a 50s Cadillac all black and chrome, allegedly the original owner was Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, by the time it got here all the glass was broken but to me it still had style. I also fancied the original Checker Taxi and just missed out on a 1950s Ford F150.
As you say post mid 70s, the ones I drove would struggle to get to 65 Mph.
AS a result of repairing a Citroen 2CV owners club member's vehicle somehow I ended up working on 6 or 7 including one guy who drove a Reliant Scimitar whose two daughters and wife all drove the 2CV Charleston in Red an Black livery I seem to recall.

 

[StevenRB45]

There are several instance on the internet regarding this, not just Citroen , if there wasn't an issue why would manufacturers go to the cost of fixing it with electronic handbrake.
Even after a short run if you put your hand on a front or rear brake disc after going down the hills near here, they are more than a little warm, so as they cool down and the iron disc contracts the grip of the brake pads reduces .

The C5 has an electric parking brake in that era it would be an early system. They also had manual ones..the difference being if the car had steel suspension it got a manual handbrake, LHM cars got electric for whatever reason. So could be manual or electric handbrake affected by that recall.

Also there's no difference in the basic operation on the parking brake between electric and manual. In our car you pull the handbrake handle until the resistance increases due to pads contacting disc. On an electric car it winds in the rear pads with an actuator until they contact the disc. In neither case is the ABS module used.

 

[bugsymike]

The C5 has an electric parking brake in that era it would be an early system. They also had manual ones..the difference being if the car had steel suspension it got a manual handbrake, LHM cars got electric for whatever reason. So could be manual or electric handbrake affected by that recall.

Also there's no difference in the basic operation on the parking brake between electric and manual. In our car you pull the handbrake handle until the resistance increases due to pads contacting disc. On an electric car it winds in the rear pads with an actuator until they contact the disc. In neither case is the ABS module used.

Re the ABS module that was in reference to Hill hold and on some vehicle traction control YAW control etc. I know my old Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 uses it for those things.
I think in general it is easier to lock rear wheels with drum brakes than cars with rear discs and pads due to smaller contact area requiring higher brake force.

Weak handbrake on cars fitted with rear disc brakes - Clubjazz​

https://clubjazz.org › forum





The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would ...
Disc parking brakes are never that good - which is why Mercedes Volvo etc which have disc rear brakes use a separate drum for parking brakes.
The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would be compensated for by the tension of the cable if the brake is applied firmly enough, and is allowed for in the newer vehicles with electronic parking brakes.
The MOT requirement for parking brake is 16% efficiency, being the 3rd line of braking, a threshold which I personally think is a bit low.

 

[StevenRB45]

Re the ABS module that was in reference to Hill hold and on some vehicle traction control YAW control etc. I know my old Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 uses it for those things.
I think in general it is easier to lock rear wheels with drum brakes than cars with rear discs and pads due to smaller contact area requiring higher brake force.

Weak handbrake on cars fitted with rear disc brakes - Clubjazz​

https://clubjazz.org › forum





The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would ...
Disc parking brakes are never that good - which is why Mercedes Volvo etc which have disc rear brakes use a separate drum for parking brakes.
The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would be compensated for by the tension of the cable if the brake is applied firmly enough, and is allowed for in the newer vehicles with electronic parking brakes.
The MOT requirement for parking brake is 16% efficiency, being the 3rd line of braking, a threshold which I personally think is a bit low.

I'm in the habit of putting the car in gear if I leave it on a hill. I also tend to knock it out of gear without pressing the clutch on my return.

If it's moved it won't come out which is why I do it..Mazda moved by that measure once but that was on gravel hill with people piling in and out so just as likely to be stones under the tyres moving as the handbrake itself.

Only cars I've ever had with a useless handbrake had drums, 80s and 90s Fiats for some reason never worked for me in their entirety despite multiple new parts. Closest I came was a Punto where the handbrake worked but the light didn't..other 2 all they did was switch the light on pretty much.

In theory yes, drum has a larger surface area but unless you're pulling handbrake turns as long it locks and stays locked, six of one half a dozen of the other.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Speak as you find, though I have had one on an Iveco 3.5 tonne just after it had passed it's Mot on the way home the lining left the shoe, in fairness the vehicle had been standing for some time whilst I rebuilt the engine so I suspect a build up of rust contributed to it's demise. I tend to ease the handbrake on whilst going down a hill now and again to clean the drums as with disc rear brake they often are only used when stationary which doesn't help.
Re the Desoto parking brake on propshaft, similar to a old customer of mines camper Cherokee Sun Voyager and also older proper Land Rovers , (Series and Defenders) the advantage being action multiplied due to going through the diff/rear axle ratio, the disadvantage is, if a half shaft breaks you have no handbrake unless you have LSD diff possibly.
Line lock OK as long as hydraulics hold pressure.
Am I right electronic handbrakes came into fashion after several Citroen's with manual disc handbrakes parked hot , then cooled down and rolled away due to contraction of cooling discs crashing into cars.

I dont know but remember my GSA rolling down our drive and resting above the stream opposite stopped only bt a newly planted alder tree. 42 years ago now! Ive never trusted a disc brake hand brake since.

 

[bugsymike]

I dont know but remember my GSA rolling down our drive and resting above the stream opposite stopped only bt a newly planted alder tree. 42 years ago now! Ive never trusted a disc brake hand brake since.

There are lots of hill around our way, I looked out the window and saw one of my daughters car a Peugeot 307, I think resting against the back of a neighbours car 40ft down the road from where she left it after a drive, handbrake was still on, I know you can argue to pull it on a few more notches, but where do you stop. I had a bloke in our yard who would move my Land Rover to back his trailer in and bearing in this was in a flat car park and the Land Rover is known for an effective handbrake, I used to say to him if he wanted to pull it any higher I would have to fit a sun roof!

 

[StevenRB45]

I can entirely see why it would be a problem on a car with tiny unventilated discs and a handbrake that operates on the front.

But no modern car has that setup..I can also entirely see why someone who is embarrassed they left their handbrake off or did not apply it correctly would say they had.

My Mazda once rolled away... unfortunately the hand brake had entirely failed to apply itself. But otherwise, my dad had a 307 for 4 years...it was always where he left it, I had the Mazda 8 years...always where I left that..a DS3 for 3 years..it never wandered off 5 years in C3 so far..still nothing. 20 years of rear disc handbrakes and the only time they've moved..was user error.

 

[bugsymike]

I can entirely see why it would be a problem on a car with tiny unventilated discs and a handbrake that operates on the front.

But no modern car has that setup..I can also entirely see why someone who is embarrassed they left their handbrake off or did not apply it correctly would say they had.

My Mazda once rolled away... unfortunately the hand brake had entirely failed to apply itself. But otherwise, my dad had a 307 for 4 years...it was always where he left it, I had the Mazda 8 years...always where I left that..a DS3 for 3 years..it never wandered off 5 years in C3 so far..still nothing. 20 years of rear disc handbrakes and the only time they've moved..was user error.

OK, so why did manufacturers go to an electronic handbrake

 

[StevenRB45]

OK, so why did manufacturers go to an electronic handbrake

Saves interior space, fewer mechanical components and cheaper for them to build I'd imagine.

Yeah it needs 2 actuator's at the back but saves the handle, ratchet, cables, linkages etc. They can stick a cubby in the middle or have a flat floor and you can use them for things like auto parking and auto hold etc which is good for the brochure.

 

[portland_bill]

OK, so why did manufacturers go to an electronic handbrake

Several reasons.
1. Many people do not apply a manual parking brake properly. We were always taught to press the button, lift the lever, hold it up, release the button. Pressing the button reduced the wear on the ratchet. Ratchets are better these days, but still only lubricated by the oily residue on the metal when stamped out. Manufacturers mostly now, if the handbook is read, say apply with button released. (Nasty noises, painful to anyone with any mechanical sympathy) An electric one takes away the driver error.
In many countries, especially the US, when a handbrake fails, instead of blaming the driver, they sue the manufacturer. An electric brake negates this. It worked when it left the factory, any subsequent failure is between owner and servicing garage.
2. Early disc handbrakes would release as they cooled. Many now have a stiff spring in the system, which we pull when we apply the handbrake, and it holds as the discs cool. (My Fabia, Jock's Ibiza) The electric system tensions a spring.
3. It allows the switch to be placed almost anywhere, leaving room for cupholders, and no big hole in the floor.

Most new cars now will apply the electric brake if the door is opened, preventing driver error, hence the need to plug in and tell it to let go when servicing.
I hate the delay. When I lift a lever, the brakes are on. When I lift a switch, there's a pause.
Most, to apply, you lift the switch. To release, you press down. Like the lever, intuitive. Mercedes have reversed this. Push to apply, lift to release. Screws with your head.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Mercedes have reversed this. Push to apply, lift to release. Screws with your head.

Mercedes’ never did anything normal when it came to hand brakes.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Re the ABS module that was in reference to Hill hold and on some vehicle traction control YAW control etc. I know my old Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 uses it for those things.
I think in general it is easier to lock rear wheels with drum brakes than cars with rear discs and pads due to smaller contact area requiring higher brake force.

Weak handbrake on cars fitted with rear disc brakes - Clubjazz​

https://clubjazz.org › forum





The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would ...
Disc parking brakes are never that good - which is why Mercedes Volvo etc which have disc rear brakes use a separate drum for parking brakes.
The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would be compensated for by the tension of the cable if the brake is applied firmly enough, and is allowed for in the newer vehicles with electronic parking brakes.
The MOT requirement for parking brake is 16% efficiency, being the 3rd line of braking, a threshold which I personally think is a bit low.

Interesting thread this. I tend to always put vehicles in first or reverse gear if parking on a slope - remmeber first if facing down hill and reverse when facing up. Why? because you don't want the engine to turn backwards if the vehicle does move because that might just make a timing belt or chain (depending on type) to jump a tooth or more. I know the argument about leaving in gear being ineffective due to compression leaking away over time so I also always turn the front wheels into the kerb for extra resistance to moving

2. Early disc handbrakes would release as they cooled. Many now have a stiff spring in the system, which we pull when we apply the handbrake, and it holds as the discs cool. (My Fabia, Jock's Ibiza) The electric system tensions a spring.

Absolutely PB. I wondered what the wee slightly squeaky noise was when I first bought the Ibiza. You can feel the spring compressing and the little, unusual noise, as you pull the handle up. Thumbs up to keeping the ratchet button depressed as you pull the handle up. I like to do this, release the button when I feel the tension is sufficient and let the ratchet take the load, then pull up again slowly for one "click" and let the ratchet take the load again just to be sure it's caught properly. I've done this for longer than I can remember and never had a problem with the ratchets or a failure to hold.

I don't dislike electric hand brakes because they are electric but I do dislike the cost of replacing a caliper with an electric handbrake built in and the extra hassle when doing brake workdue to the need to use a scanner to retract it and the slight possibility it might chop you fingers off if you get it wrong does worry me so I'm very glad that all the family vehicles at present have cable operated hand brakes!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I had a bloke in our yard who would move my Land Rover to back his trailer in and bearing in this was in a flat car park and the Land Rover is known for an effective handbrake, I used to say to him if he wanted to pull it any higher I would have to fit a sun roof!

The hand brake on earlier Land Rovers were an interesting thing and little understood by many who drove them. It operated on the propshaft to the rear wheels thus stopping the prop shaft from being able to rotate and thus stopping the vehicle from moving as it, in effect, locked up the final drive pinion. Unfortunately this did not lock the bevel gears in the diff so if one rear wheel was on a slippy surface, like a sheet iced road surface as happened to me with our breakdown truck, the wheel on the ice could then rotate backwards so allowing the other wheel to rotate DOR and the Landy went off merrily down the hill! Luckily this was only for a few feet in my case before that wheel on the ice got a grip again and stopped the slide. I've had farmers who mentioned, when the vehicle was in for service, that the hand brake didn't seem to be holding sometimes but when checked seemed to have nothing wrong with it. Closer questioning usually revealed that the vehicle had been parked on a steep muddy slope although one had been parked on the ramp leading to the slurry pit, that wasn't a very nice one!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Re the ABS module that was in reference to Hill hold and on some vehicle traction control YAW control etc. I know my old Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 uses it for those things.
I think in general it is easier to lock rear wheels with drum brakes than cars with rear discs and pads due to smaller contact area requiring higher brake force.

Weak handbrake on cars fitted with rear disc brakes - Clubjazz​

https://clubjazz.org › forum





The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would ...
Disc parking brakes are never that good - which is why Mercedes Volvo etc which have disc rear brakes use a separate drum for parking brakes.
The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would be compensated for by the tension of the cable if the brake is applied firmly enough, and is allowed for in the newer vehicles with electronic parking brakes.
The MOT requirement for parking brake is 16% efficiency, being the 3rd line of braking, a threshold which I personally think is a bit low.

You have picked a very good example of a car which had a poor handbrake even when all new. We've had a Jazz - 08 plate - in the family for a number of years and a very good, well made, car it is too - I like many things about it. However the handbrake is very poor and only just scrapes through it's MOT every year. It's had new cables, discs, pads and calipers (because they rusted internally) and endless "fettling" but never manages to do better than just scrape through. The Garage tells me they are well known for this "problem". As an emergency brake it might as well not be there, hardly slows the car at all, however it does, just about, hold the car on the steep street she has to leave it on when she's at work. (in gear with wheels turned to the kerb just in case) Only other thing which annoys me about the car is the very weak self centering on the steering which is almost non existent around the straight ahead position making the steering very "fidgety" to drive out on the open road where you seem to be constantly making very small steering corrections - they are well known for this - It puts me in mind of what it felt like driving the old BMC stuff (A35, A60 Sprite, etc with their king pin type front suspension) when the king pin, had not been greased and so the uprights were partially seized on them. The Mk2 Jazz, as I understand it, was given more castor so, apparently (I've not driven one) curing the problem.

 

[bugsymike]

You have picked a very good example of a car which had a poor handbrake even when all new. We've had a Jazz - 08 plate - in the family for a number of years and a very good, well made, car it is too - I like many things about it. However the handbrake is very poor and only just scrapes through it's MOT every year. It's had new cables, discs, pads and calipers (because they rusted internally) and endless "fettling" but never manages to do better than just scrape through. The Garage tells me they are well known for this "problem". As an emergency brake it might as well not be there, hardly slows the car at all, however it does, just about, hold the car on the steep street she has to leave it on when she's at work. (in gear with wheels turned to the kerb just in case) Only other thing which annoys me about the car is the very weak self centering on the steering which is almost non existent around the straight ahead position making the steering very "fidgety" to drive out on the open road where you seem to be constantly making very small steering corrections - they are well known for this - It puts me in mind of what it felt like driving the old BMC stuff (A35, A60 Sprite, etc with their king pin type front suspension) when the king pin, had not been greased and so the uprights were partially seized on them. The Mk2 Jazz, as I understand it, was given more castor so, apparently (I've not driven one) curing the problem.

It may be possible to increase the "toe in" within makers tolerance of course, to improve self centering. Though you would need to keep an eye on tyre wear as modern wide tyres + power steering tend to wear the outside edge of tread and more "toe in" can increase wear on outside edge.
In the same way if they tow out to much cars have a tendency to wander and not hold a straight line,and wear on the inside edge.
I am lucky I still have my old Dunlop Wheel Alignment Gauge from years ago, I much prefer it as you can easily zero/check before use.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As I'm looking after our cars long term so always know where a tyre on a vehicle has been running (so, for instance, that N/S front on whatever vehicle I'm looking at at the time, I know has been on that hub for however many miles/months/years) I find keeping a close eye on tread wear patterns tips me off immediately if that particular vehicle has a problem. I always do a walk round their cars whenever I'm visiting any of the family, only takes a few moments.

If I then find something requires attention and subsequent checking/adjustment of the toe in I haul out my old, trusted, tried and true home made tracking gauge! See here: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/jocks-tracking-gauge.460442/ I've posted this before but just in case you missed it I thought I'd drag it up here again. Other enthusiast friends deride me for using it but actually, as long as you're very careful using it, it works very well. I've been using it for years and don't get feathering or other tread problems. It's only draw back is that it's a bit more difficult to use with electric power steering as steering wheel centering is more difficult than when on a laser alignment bench. I used it to double check when one of the cars was professionally adjusted in a garage and it produced exactly the result I expected. I envy you the Dunlop gauges but the centering problem will be the same for you using that as I have with mine. It's a tool I'm very familiar with as all the garages I worked in had a set. Very good tool but you had to check zeroing every time before use which I've often observed people not doing! All irrelevant now with laser alignment eh? Also, how often do you see inexperienced operators drive the vehicle straight onto the alignment machine with no sign of any prior suspension checks being made? Then, later, when the new tyres have been wrecked, everyone looks on in amazement at the degree of wear in the bottom ball or T/R end? People that are inexperienced shouldn't be doing wheel alignment.

 

[bugsymike]

As I'm looking after our cars long term so always know where a tyre on a vehicle has been running (so, for instance, that N/S front on whatever vehicle I'm looking at at the time, I know has been on that hub for however many miles/months/years) I find keeping a close eye on tread wear patterns tips me off immediately if that particular vehicle has a problem. I always do a walk round their cars whenever I'm visiting any of the family, only takes a few moments.

If I then find something requires attention and subsequent checking/adjustment of the toe in I haul out my old, trusted, tried and true home made tracking gauge! See here: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/jocks-tracking-gauge.460442/ I've posted this before but just in case you missed it I thought I'd drag it up here again. Other enthusiast friends deride me for using it but actually, as long as you're very careful using it, it works very well. I've been using it for years and don't get feathering or other tread problems. It's only draw back is that it's a bit more difficult to use with electric power steering as steering wheel centering is more difficult than when on a laser alignment bench. I used it to double check when one of the cars was professionally adjusted in a garage and it produced exactly the result I expected. I envy you the Dunlop gauges but the centering problem will be the same for you using that as I have with mine. It's a tool I'm very familiar with as all the garages I worked in had a set. Very good tool but you had to check zeroing every time before use which I've often observed people not doing! All irrelevant now with laser alignment eh? Also, how often do you see inexperienced operators drive the vehicle straight onto the alignment machine with no sign of any prior suspension checks being made? Then, later, when the new tyres have been wrecked, everyone looks on in amazement at the degree of wear in the bottom ball or T/R end? People that are inexperienced shouldn't be doing wheel alignment.

Your gauge looks similar to the one Moskvich supplied to dealers in the 70s, except it was grooved to fit on the inner wheel rim and had two chains hanging down so you got the position correct then from under the ramp/pit you pushed the car forward and measured again to check. The benefit was it sat in one position on the wheel rim. My Dunlop Alignment Gauge is lurking at the back amidst some of the rest of the junk!
Re tracking and wheel balancing as in many walks of life , it is a good as the bloke doing the job.