What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[PuntoHowTo]

There was an interesting idea put forward I believe by Jack Rickard about how the electric cars will go down.
It went something like this -

Stage 1 - Lekky cars are expensive but most folks would have one given the money but they will take an IC engine next time.
Stage 2 - Lekky cars are getting cheaper so dont really want to lock into old tech. I'll keep my IC car a bit longer.
Stage 3 - Legacy car makers drop the prices and entice a few into their products. But now they have even less cash to spend on new leaky models.
Stage 4 - People refuse to sell their older but reliable IC cars while they wait for Lekky to arrive. Used car prices spike. Garage services do a great trade fixing cars that have been kept going for longer than usual.
Stage 5 - People switch to electric cars. The IC car market collapses. Smaller garages and dealers go out of business along with legacy car makers who failed to make the shift in time.
Stage 6 - IC car drivers suffer range anxiety (and high costs) as petrol stations dry up.

I kinda agree with all of that, I’d even go as far to say that we are already somewhere around stage 4 with used car prices definitely creeping up as people are holding on to cars longer (which is also partly being lead by economic issues and consumer confidence given Covid)

Also I do think given what I see as a huge increase in even normal car prices, that manufactures are now struggling to fund the development of new models,
In 2008 I bought my 3 year old Punto for under £4K, (from a dealer) there are not many small cars for under £4K these days, that would right now be a late 2017 model car for less than £4K when some dealers are charging that sort of money for a much older puntos even grandes over 10 year old at the moment.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Picked up a story about longevity of electric drive trains. Despite the motor being brushless, the magnetic field induces current in the whole thing, being metal, and current passes through the motor bearings. The bearings gradually deteriorate as a result, with pitting of the bearing surfaces.
There is a story of a guy in America with a Merc B-class electric, 5 years old, with horrendous motor whine. Dealer quoted to replace the complete motor, $18k. Later dropped to $12k with motor at cost and labour discounted by 20%.
There's a guy in California specialising in this sort of repair, will replace the bearings in the motors. Car had to be transported there and back, but total cost was $5k. Cheaper, but still a lot.
Sort of kills the savings made by reduced ICE servicing.
Apparently this is a feature of all brushless electric motors, well known in other industries such as washing machines. I foresee specialist motor rebuilders popping up in a few years time.
Saw a vid showing ownership costs of EV v ICE. Fuel savings would take 10 years before they paid for the extra cost of the EV, after whish you'd start to save money. A more complicated calculation accounting for servicing and brakes brought the break-even point to about 7 years, still longer than most keep the car. Whilst an EV will be lighter on its brakes, they are expected to be heavier on suspension bushes and dampers.

There is no magic answer.

Not heard that before but having a look into it it’s quite an interesting (and complicated) science.

Seems it’s not a definite problem but maybe the design of the motor and relation to the bearing has a significant impact on if the bearings will fail early.

Also bearings as an item are quite cheap, I’m sure in this case the expense comes from it being something unique to mercedes and it being a dealer only part.

From what I’ve seen electric cars are extremely easy to work on, who motors and batteries can be removed in no time, motors can be taken apart, there are many companies already that refurbish motors AC and DC for industrial processes and machines so it’s already something that is not difficult to find someone todo. Really electric cars should be very cheap to repair in the future but I’m guessing this insane bill, maybe because of the brand, the rarity of the car, specific parts and dealers charging what they want.

Really a bearing change should be no more complicated than a wheel bearing

 

[portland_bill]

Of course, it won't be much of a change for Mercedes/Audi/BMW drivers who already have horrendously priced and over-engineered parts fail in ownership, but for the rest of us.... not good.

Not heard that before but having a look into it it’s quite an interesting (and complicated) science.

Seems it’s not a definite problem but maybe the design of the motor and relation to the bearing has a significant impact on if the bearings will fail early.

Also bearings as an item are quite cheap, I’m sure in this case the expense comes from it being something unique to mercedes and it being a dealer only part.

From what I’ve seen electric cars are extremely easy to work on, who motors and batteries can be removed in no time, motors can be taken apart, there are many companies already that refurbish motors AC and DC for industrial processes and machines so it’s already something that is not difficult to find someone todo. Really electric cars should be very cheap to repair in the future but I’m guessing this insane bill, maybe because of the brand, the rarity of the car, specific parts and dealers charging what they want.

Really a bearing change should be no more complicated than a wheel bearing

Mercedes for that model used Tesla drivetrain, so the motor is Tesla.
Whilst the motor can be taken apart, neither Tesla or Mercedes have included that in their repair operations, choosing to supply complete motors only. Unsurprising for Tesla, who had no experience of the motor industry, but an oversight by Mercedes, unless their deal with Tesla prevented it. Older vehicles with high repair costs will eventually impact new sales.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Mercedes for that model used Tesla drivetrain, so the motor is Tesla.
Whilst the motor can be taken apart, neither Tesla or Mercedes have included that in their repair operations, choosing to supply complete motors only. Unsurprising for Tesla, who had no experience of the motor industry, but an oversight by Mercedes, unless their deal with Tesla prevented it. Older vehicles with high repair costs will eventually impact new sales.

The Tesla motor is more or less a modular design that can be swapped out very easily, Tesla I believe also have a very good warranty on their batteries and motors and won’t hesitate to swap something if needs be.

Because it’s a Mercedes it’s obviously not covered by the same warranty that Tesla would Tesla would just swap it l, so that explains the stupid cost then, I’m guessing mercedes warranty there own motor.

There are many little independent garages beginning to pop up doing work like this on electric cars, especially as Tesla won’t warranty anything that’s had so much as a stone chip repair. So I’m sure there would be some garage that would help, but he’d probably have to transport the car miles to get it sorted the curse of new technology.

Years ago no garages had OBD kit so just swapped bits till the fault went away then charged you a fortune for “fault finding” which was just trial and error, this is id say the new version of that

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Scrapping the OBD port would be a massive backward step as you'd soon need specialist kit for every car maker and potentially every new model. The OBD forces manufacturers to keep to a standard interface which has to be a good thing.

Can’t say I agree. You already need specialist equipment for almost every car for anything none engine / emissions related, as that’s the only thing that seems have been mandated as being generic.

Obviously EVs not having engines with emission systems, that’s now not required. Everything else such as SRS systems etc will just need the specialist kit.

I suppose they’ll need something to make you need a dealer when servicing is no longer a thing.

Picked up a story about longevity of electric drive trains. Despite the motor being brushless, the magnetic field induces current in the whole thing, being metal, and current passes through the motor bearings. The bearings gradually deteriorate as a result, with pitting of the bearing surfaces.
There is a story of a guy in America with a Merc B-class electric, 5 years old, with horrendous motor whine. Dealer quoted to replace the complete motor, $18k. Later dropped to $12k with motor at cost and labour discounted by 20%.
There's a guy in California specialising in this sort of repair, will replace the bearings in the motors. Car had to be transported there and back, but total cost was $5k. Cheaper, but still a lot.
Sort of kills the savings made by reduced ICE servicing.
Apparently this is a feature of all brushless electric motors, well known in other industries such as washing machines. I foresee specialist motor rebuilders popping up in a few years time.
Saw a vid showing ownership costs of EV v ICE. Fuel savings would take 10 years before they paid for the extra cost of the EV, after whish you'd start to save money. A more complicated calculation accounting for servicing and brakes brought the break-even point to about 7 years, still longer than most keep the car. Whilst an EV will be lighter on its brakes, they are expected to be heavier on suspension bushes and dampers.

There is no magic answer.

So one single case??

I’ll take my chances. 2 major gearbox issues within 65 months of manufacture on a Diesel Fiat have taught me that these things aren’t EV specific, and although there can be failures, just like in any mass produced product, they’re a lot less common in EVs

 

[puntofan01]

Picked up a story about longevity of electric drive trains. Despite the motor being brushless, the magnetic field induces current in the whole thing, being metal, and current passes through the motor bearings. The bearings gradually deteriorate as a result, with pitting of the bearing surfaces.
There is a story of a guy in America with a Merc B-class electric, 5 years old, with horrendous motor whine. Dealer quoted to replace the complete motor, $18k. Later dropped to $12k with motor at cost and labour discounted by 20%.
There's a guy in California specialising in this sort of repair, will replace the bearings in the motors. Car had to be transported there and back, but total cost was $5k. Cheaper, but still a lot.
Sort of kills the savings made by reduced ICE servicing.
Apparently this is a feature of all brushless electric motors, well known in other industries such as washing machines. I foresee specialist motor rebuilders popping up in a few years time.
Saw a vid showing ownership costs of EV v ICE. Fuel savings would take 10 years before they paid for the extra cost of the EV, after whish you'd start to save money. A more complicated calculation accounting for servicing and brakes brought the break-even point to about 7 years, still longer than most keep the car. Whilst an EV will be lighter on its brakes, they are expected to be heavier on suspension bushes and dampers.

There is no magic answer.

That wouldn't have been from John Cadogan, of AutoExpert AU, by any chance, lol? [emoji6]

 

[portland_bill]

That wouldn't have been from John Cadogan, of AutoExpert AU, by any chance, lol? [emoji6]

Yes.

I actually found the article he referred to. Took a bit of searching, the Elektrek website is a mess. Gave a bit more detail of how/why the failure occured. A link does not seem to work, taking to the main website only, not the actual article, so presenting a silly challenge to find it.

 

[varesecrazy]

My MOT was due.. and I thought I would check out some possible replacement items

Brake Drums ..
@£140

Each..!!

Thankfully it was fine..

Can shop around for my service items

 

[portland_bill]

My MOT was due.. and I thought I would check out some possible replacement items

Brake Drums ..
@£140

Each..!!

Thankfully it was fine..

Can shop around for my service items

Need alloy wheels for the gold plating to show through.
What vehicle was this?

 

[varesecrazy]

What vehicle was this?

Punto Twinair..

They are different spec - shoe width and diameter..to the mj's.. which were significantly cheaper

 

[DaveMcT]

I kinda agree with all of that, I’d even go as far to say that we are already somewhere around stage 4 with used car prices definitely creeping up as people are holding on to cars longer (which is also partly being lead by economic issues and consumer confidence given Covid)

Also I do think given what I see as a huge increase in even normal car prices, that manufactures are now struggling to fund the development of new models,
In 2008 I bought my 3 year old Punto for under £4K, (from a dealer) there are not many small cars for under £4K these days, that would right now be a late 2017 model car for less than £4K when some dealers are charging that sort of money for a much older puntos even grandes over 10 year old at the moment.

The original was published IIRC before Covid. Can't find now it without wading through his very long discussions.

The point was that electric cars will stall sales of new IC cars. That will push up the values of good used cars as people want to hang on longer so they can go electric. The Covid slump might have muddled with that and might create its own bounce recovery.
The effects will be a temporary boom for used car dealers and service garages. But when electrics do arrive in force nobody will want IC cars risking a nasty slump in values and a fall in work for garages.

Hopefully, Government forcing electric cars into the market won't aggravate the problems. At least manufacturers have had plenty of warning.

 

[puntofan01]

Watching last nights Top Gear: for some reason, it made me feel sad and reminiscent! [emoji52]

 

[varesecrazy]

Yesterday marked the anniversary of the last 'car meet' I attended..

Probably the last one on the forum..

People have approached me about another..

It would be great to have something to look forward to.. but of course also a worry about mixing again.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Aye Charlie, I'd like to enjoy a day in the sun watching the hillclimb at Doune this summer - I'm not getting my hopes up though.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

but of course also a worry about mixing again.

Would probably be safer now than it was 8 days before the first lockdown at least

 

[StevenRB45]

Watching last nights Top Gear: for some reason, it made me feel sad and reminiscent! [emoji52]

It was a cracking show, doing stuff Clarkson and co would not have been seen dead doing and doing it well.

 

[varesecrazy]

It was a cracking show, doing stuff Clarkson and co would not have been seen dead doing and doing it well.

Am I too old to appreciate this..?

 

[StevenRB45]

Am I too old to appreciate this..?

The episode mainly consisted of the presenters ambling round the lakes in 80s dad cars and nothing got even mildly destroyed.

 

[SB1500]

Watching last nights Top Gear: for some reason, it made me feel sad and reminiscent! [emoji52]

I miss it too. I watched the first few series in December there. It started off so basic compared to the last years!

I watched the Grand Tour, and it is good, but it's just not the same.

Then I watched James May in Japan, actually decent!!! Strange fellow, but interesting all the same (Hey, he owned a Panda!)

 

[puntofan01]

I know it's not that many years ago for me, but that episode got me thinking of my youth, and the fond memories I have of my late teens and early twenties. (The car that I have the most, and indeed the fondest memories of was my parents mk2 Punto.)